Re: [s-d] [s-b] Consultation on tweaks

[comex <comexk@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Alex Smith <ais523@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-12-26 at 17:41 +0000, Elliott Hird wrote:
>> On 26 Dec 2008, at 16:40, Alex Smith wrote:
>>
>> > Nothing in the rules says that you can do that. In pretty much all
>> > games
>> > in existence, you can't just arbitrarily modify the gamestate. (For
>> > instance, in Monopoly, you can't arbitrarily give yourself money just
>> > because the game doesn't say you can't.) I see no reason why Nomic
>> > should be different; games, generally, default to inability to
>> > alter the
>> > gamestate without explicit permission, but ability to do anything
>> > unrelated to the game.
>>
>> Suber 101, all players must follow the rules.
>>
>> Nothing is implicit. Read the game actions rule.
>>
>> > Therefore, your action fails. (Incidentally, your "patch rule", if it
>> > worked, is grammatically incorrect and that could lead to all sorts of
>> > trouble with the typical ehird literal-interpretation view of things.
>> > Also, you didn't define gamestate, so your dictatorship fails.)
>>
>> RPs work on gamestate. So do proposals. Are you saying they don't
>> work?
>>
>> > Hmm... maybe real life follows the ehird interpretation of things
>> > too. I
>> > modify ehird to prevent em falling into ISIDTID fallacies. (If you
>> > claim
>> > this doesn't work, then why would ehird's gamestate modification
>> > work?)
>> Because of my patch.
>
> ehird's been trying to argue over IRC that changing the rules is a Game
> Action because "A Game Action is defined as any activity specified by
> the Rules that changes the state of the game.", and therefore e can take
> it. In that case, I claim that "To perform a Game Action, an Outsider
> must post a message to a Public Forum specifying that they are taking
> that action." means that nothing other than a post by an Outsider
> claiming that they can take that action can do anything that changes the
> game; in other words, proposals fail as they aren't Outsiders and so
> cannot change the gamestate, according to that rule. (Quite possibly,
> Refresh Proposals also fail since the Fifth Era started, for the same
> reason.)

"To perform a Game Action, an Outsider must..." says nothing about
what a non-Outsider must do to perform a Game Action.  It would be
accurate to say "To change the Laws of white, comex must get Sgeo's
consent", but that doesn't mean that Sgeo can't change the Laws with
comex's consent.
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