Re: spoon-discuss: Dan's megaprop

[Dan Waldron <wald7330@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Glotmorf wrote:

> Dan,
> 
> 	With all due respect, I've got enough problems with enough
> pieces of this proposal that I've come up with an alternative form for
> it below, which I'd like to offer you.  I've made it an A La Carte
> Prop, breaking it into separate items.
> 
> 	While I admire the effort you put into your proposal, I'm still
> prepared to vote no on the whole thing in its current form because it
> repeals Rule 0.  Rule 0 was created in response to a general agreement
> that a safety net was needed, since there was no provision otherwise
> to deal with either a paradox or the loss of the Administrator.  I'm
> not prepared to give it up yet, and I'd be surprised if most of the
> other players were. (see Item 8 below)

Rule zero can be put back in.  I don't think it will cause any great
problems.  

> 
> 	In your Definitions section, I believe your definition of
> "non-Beings" would include Gremlins, which are designed to make
> changes to the game state.  Forbidding non-Beings from changing the
> game state might mess a few things up.  I added a piece to the last
> sentence. (see Item 2 below)

Yes, thank you for catching that oversight.  I think that adding "except
as specified by physical law" would be preferable to "except as specified
by the rules" because "the rules" include mutable rules, which are not
supposed to apply to gremlins and the like.

> 
> 	I moved the change to Rule 25 into the same item as the new rule
> describing Administrator duties.  Given the duties rule, is Rule 25
> still necessary, especially in your amended form?  Perhaps replacing
> the text of Rule 25 with the text of your new duties rule would be
> more efficient. (see Item 4 below)
> 

Yes, rule 25 can probably go.

> 	I'm uncomfortable with the Rule 14 change.  If forfeiting means
> withdrawing consent, does withdrawing consent mean forfeiting? (see
> Item 5 below)
> 
> 	I've added my suggested definition of Charter Rules in place of
> your placeholder.  I think it'll cover Society Charters, and also
> something I'm working on called Offers. (see Item 6 below)
> 
> 	Chutzpah was created to give subclasses of priority to rules, so
> that it was not necessary to explicitly state when one rule takes
> priority over another (which can get confusing with the Less is More
> trend).  Having two classes of rules -- physical and mutable -- is
> nice, but is it truly sufficient? (see Item 9 below)

Is there anywhere that Chutzpah is currently needed?  I am personally of
the opinion that chutzpah is unnescessary and we will manage fine with
two divisions, especially if Charter Rules can be used to cover low
priority rules.  Chutzpah also cannot work in its current form within the
proposed system because it could claim to give a mutable rule priority
over a physical law, which could be dangerous.  It could be altered,
however, to work within the rule categories.  I would be willing to write
an adapted version of this rule and include it as an a la carte item or,
if there is overwhelming support for it, to just include it.

> 
> 	Regarding the change to Rule 152: Why take out proposals as a
> mechanism for changing the game state?  Or are you considering
> proposals actions? (see Item 10 below)

I don't think I did that.  Proposals are revisable objects which a player
may create and amend by actions.  It is also a formal request
for a set of changes to the rules and game state (rule 19).  In my new
rule, __Duties of the Administrator__ the admin is called upon to put in
place the changes called for by a successful proposal.

This is an example of the reason why I am afraid to make this an a la
carte proposal.  Introduced in what you have made into conditional but
required parts are security measures and systems upon which the earlier
parts depend.  I don't believe it can safely be broken up.

I am working on a revised version that incorporates the bulk of your
suggestions.

Dan

> 
> 						Glotmorf
> 
> Alternate proposal form:
> 
> {{ __Introducing Physical Law__
> 
> This is an A La Carte Prop.
> 
> {{ _Item 1_
> 
> Give to the following Rules the designation "Physical Law"
> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 22, 153, 154, 205, 206, 207, 210,
> 213, 215, 216, 258, 259, 293, 295, 298, 301, 344, 346, 347, 349, 350, 351,
> 352, 353, 354, 355, 356, 394, 401, 405, 407, 408, 440, 441, 443, 466, 469,
> 493, 494, 495, 497, 498, 502, 503, 504, 546, 547, 549, 550, 577, 628, 635,
> 622, 696, 705, 748, 749, 750, 751, 752, 753.
> 
> Give to the following Rules the designation "Mutable Rule"
> 0, 9, 10, 14, 15, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32, 124,
> 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 150, 151, 152, 155, 204, 208, 209, 211, 212, 214,
> 216, 217, 255, 257, 262, 263, 294, 300, 358, 393, 395, 396, 403, 404, 436,
> 437, 573, 578, 580, 625, 626, 627, 629, 630, 631, 633, 536, 697, 698, 699,
> 700, 701, 704, 706, 746.
> 
> 
> Enact the following new rule and make it a "Physical Law" 
> {{
> __Rule Classes & Permissions__
> There exist three types of rules: Physical Laws, Mutable Rules, and
> Charter Rules.
> 
> Physical Laws take precedence over all other rules.  Mutable Rules take
> precedence over Charter Rules.
> 
> All entities defined or regulated by the Physical Laws by obey the
> Physical Laws.  An action is impossible if it is prohibited by the
> Physical Laws.
> 
> Players, the Administrator, and any other self-willed entities are
> required to obey the Mutable Rules. An action is illegal if it is
> prohibited by the Mutable Rules.
> 
> Obeyance to the Physical Laws does not exempt an entity subject to the
> Mutable Rules from any requirement in either body of rules.
> 
> Charter Rules are of lower precedence than Physical Laws or Mutable Rules.
> Players are not required to obey Charter Rules except as specified in the
> Mutable Rules.  Non-player entities are not required to obey the Charter
> Rules.
> 
> }}
> 
> Revise rule 18 by replacing "Ruleset" with "Mutable Rules" in the first
> paragraph.
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 1 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 2_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Revise rule 13 "Definitions" by revising it to read as follows: 
> {{ 
> 
> A player is any entity who is capable of passing the Turing test, consents
> to said designation as a player, has become a player in the manner
> described in the rules, and who consents to be abide by the Mutable Rules.
> 
> A being is any entity which is either a Player or the Administrator. 
> 
> A Proposing Entity, or PE, is any entity which is capable of issuing a
> Proposal. 
> 
> Beings may make changes to the rules and game state.  Non-beings may
> not, except as specified in the rules. }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 2 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 3_
> 
> Revise rule 21 "Score" by amending it to read as follows:
> {{
> Players may own points. The number of points in the posession of a player
> shall be known as eir score. 
> 
> The owner of one or more points may transfer any or all points in eir
> possession to another legal owner by posting to the public forum.  
> 
> Whenever a rule states that a Player receives points, the number of points
> in eir possession shall be increased accordingly; whenever a rule states
> that a player loses points, the number of points in eir possession shall
> be lowered accordingly, but it shall never become less than zero.
> 
> New players initially do not possess any points.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 3 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 4_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Revise rule 25, "The Administrator" by amending it to read as follows:  
> {{ The Administrator may make changes to the Rules and the Game State
> in accordance with eir duties as specified in the Rules.  The
> Administrator is subject to the Mutable Rules. }}
> 
> Enact the following new mutable rule:
> {{
> __Duties of the Administrator__
> 
> The Administrator is responsible for all game duties not assigned by the
> Rules to other players.
> 
> The Administrator shall alter the rules and the game state only as
> follows:
> 
> E shall update the game state to reflect actions legally taken and
> rules-defined game events.
> 
> E shall create and distribute points when called upon to do so
> by the Mutable Rules.
> 
> E shall alter the rules and game state as formally requested to do so by
> players via procedures defined in the mutable rules.
> 
> If no players exist or it has become demonstrably impossible to make
> changes to either the Physical Laws or the Mutable Rules e shall make such
> changes to the rules and game state as are nescessary to ensure that
> future play is possible.
> 
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 4 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 5_
> 
> Revise rule 14 by appending the following:
> {{
> Forfeiting is equivalent to withdrawal of consent.
> }}
> 
> Revise rule 10 by changing it to read as follows: 
> {{ 
> A player who refuses to obey the Rules is assumed to have withdrawn eir
> consent.  E should be given a reasonable opportunity to correct eir
> actions before this assumption is made.
> 
> If a player attempts to take an action that would violate the Rules the
> Administrator or relevant minister shall refuse to recognize that action
> unless the player specifically states that e is aware the action is
> illegal but will attempt it anyway. 
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 5 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 6_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Enact the following new mutable rule:
> {{ 
> __Charter Rules__
> 
> A Charter Rule applies to a subset of game entities, whether explicitly named or specified by a set of characteristics.  A Charter Rule may include methods for adding entities to or removing entities from the Charter Rule's applicability.
> 
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 6 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 7_
> 
> This item is contingent upon the passage of Item 1, and has no effect if Item 1 fails.
> 
> Revise rule 32 by appending the following to the third paragraph:
> {{
> Unless specified otherwise in the proposal, any new rule created is a
> Mutable Rule.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 7 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 8_
> 
> Repeal rule 0
> 
> }}
> 
> {{ _Item 9_
> 
> Repeal rule 33
> 
> }}
> 
> {{ _Item 10_
> 
> Amend rule 152 by revising it to read as follows:
> {{
> Changes to the state of the game may only be made by an Action which is
> permitted (elsewhere) by the Mutable Rules, or by the Administrator
> performing eir duties.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 10 ]]
> 
> {{ _Item 11_
> 
> Amend rule 395 by deleting the first paragraph
> 
> Amend rule 154 by appending the following to the second paragraph:
> {{
> Players have an attribute named Respect.  Respect is a Dimension.
> }}
> 
> }} [[ End of Item 11 ]]
> 
> }} [[ End of Proposal ]]
> 
> 
> 

Dan Waldron
ICQ 57894467