Daniel Lepage on Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:45:03 -0500 (CDT)


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Re: [s-d] Re: [s-b] Work is sucking the lifeforce from me--I mean, more than usual 


On Oct 26, 2004, at 11.03 AM, Jeremy Cook wrote:


On Tue, Oct 26, 2004 at 10:47:59AM -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote:


On Oct 26, 2004, at 7.56 AM, Araltaln wrote:


Right.

I rule TRUE on the cfi. While it is true that there are many many
examples of card games where cards which are laid down don't leave the 
player's possession, or even in some cases the player's hand, there's
still one thing they have in common--it's awfully hard to lay cards
down which have already been laid down without picking them back up
again. Common usage is a necessary evil, and it's certainly applicable 
in this case. As picking the Cards up is not otherwise allowed for by
the Rules, and the act of picking the Cards up would modify the game
state, I'm going to have to rule that it can't be done.


So your claim, then, is that they remain in my hand but are considered
to be 'laid down' and cannot be laid down again until they have been
'picked up'?


No. See the CFI - when location is unknown, they return to the Deck.
The CFI doesn't say the location is unknown. The statement is that I didn't succeed in laying them down more than once; the judge declared that the statement is true because once laid down a real world card cannot be laid down again until it has been picked up, and thus the same must be true of a B Nomic card. Neither of these says that the card isn't still in my hand, and indeed Araltaln's argument specifically states that it makes no claim as to the location of the cards.
If the CFI's argument is valid, I submit that a Real World (RW) card can't be put back into a RW deck without first picking up the card, so by the same logic as was used in the CFI, we can't put the card back into the deck.
The location doesn't really matter, by the way: the rules permit me to lay down three in sequence regardless of their location.
But I disagree with the argument anyway - RW cards need to be picked up first because they've been physically laid down. Our cards don't have a physical existence, and so I could not have physically laid them down. It's downright impossible. But without them being physically down, there's no reason why I need to physically pick them up; indeed, that's also impossible.
So the fundamental differences between RW cards and our cards mean that the properties Araltaln cites don't apply to ours.
I think e's trying to claim that the intent of the rule was to follow the real-world definition as closely as possible. I don't accept that the intent should make any difference; to accept that would invalidate most scams and make my favorite aspect of the game meaningless.
Once the Clock's back on and the rules are all up-to-date, I do plan on appealing this CFI, as the argument is invalid. 


All you people with tomato actions really ought to roll the necessary
dice, even if it's going to turn out you can't actually do what you
did :P


They trivially can't - bd's proposal fixed the rule to read:
"Any player who has at least one tomato may at any time declare their
intent to throw a Tomato at any other player. Doing so destroys one of
their tomatos. The targetted player is Hit with the Tomato with a
probability of 1/4. If a player is Hit with a Tomato, that player and
all cards in eir become Stained With Tomato Juice."

That pretty much bans everything everyone's tried.


Except that the nweek hasn't started yet, since we don't have results,
so the rules haven't changed yet.
The Clock is Off; actions taken will not occur until it turns back on, which will also be the beginning of the new nweek.
The new nweek may be a long time in coming: Thanks to Araltaln's judgment, I need to redo a bunch of things before Cards will be properly correct: a Rotary Exchange was played illegally, my cards may or may not have been in the deck, and this means that all subsequent draws were done wrongly... basically, I need to undo and redo all card actions taken since I first laid down my cards. 

--
Wonko

History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.
      -Churchill

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