[spoon-discuss] Responses

[Wonko <dplepage@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Wow, I've been gone for two days, and there are 40 messages waiting for
me... As opposed to the last time I missed two days on an Orchestra retreat
(almost exactly a year ago) when there were maybe 200 messages waiting for
me. Time to generate some controversy, then...

But first, my replies:

*--------*

> Landscaping was meant to be part of the 3D grid.  Does anyone want the 3D
> grid?  I mean, it's not like we're using the 2D grid that much...

I have an idea involving a grid with a set number of levels, but I wanted to
finish the Grid Minister program I've been working on. Unfortunately, time
has been sparse of late, so I'm somewhat behind schedule, and I doubt that
Dave would want to track 7200 squares by emself, so I haven't proposed it
yet.

Meanwhile, there may be a use for a lot of the useless rules we have lying
around soon anyway.

*--------*

> Not entirely true.  One can set one's philosophy to whatever one wants.  It
> just has no impact on the game unless there's a mandate for it.

Not true - mandates can dictate ways for philosophies to impact the game;
nowhere does it say that other things cannot.

*--------*

> {{__Immidiate fixes__
> }}

If this isn't changed, I'm going to vote against it just because I get
unpleasant goosebumps anytime anyone says, "Immidiatly". The word is
"Immediate", with an e; its adverb is "immediately".

Anyhoo, one thing really bugs me here: you never destroy the things. I think
it would be much clearer, instead of keeping them on as "approved",
"denied", or "retracted", simply to destroy them as soon as nothing more can
be done with them.

*--------*

> A proposal cannot both create and repeal a particular rule, or both enact and
> repeal a particular rule change.

There's no way to stop this entirely - for example, if my prop's first
action is to repeal this rule, suddenly it's all legal. Or, I could propose
to create a new rule which repeals itself after a certain amount of time,
say, fifty seconds. Or I could just create a rule which did what I wanted,
and then stayed there and cluttered up the ruleset.
    As long as proposals can have any text we want, it will never be
possible to prohibit this sort of thing.

*--------*

About the Overlord rule vs. Insta-Props:

People seem to be forgetting that Dave can veto any OL action. Glotmorf
cannot arbitrarily revoke wins without Dave's approval. And even if e did,
then we could all propose to repair the damage and depose all OLs and ULs.
    As for changes to the 'fundamental operation of the game', I don't
believe in the Gradual Solidification of Nomic; I think keeping the same
methods for too long gets boring. That's why I like things like
vote-altering tools - they keep toying with the way the game changes.
    I don't like the 'use Nomic to make an unrelated game' mentality; I
prefer the 'use Nomic to make Nomic' mentality.

*--------*

> 1. Set the Chutzpah of any rule with chutzpah greater than 10 [[thus
> *overriding* rules 0 and 10]] to 3. [[If they're *that freaking
> important* you can make them 4 later. The rule that's at chutzpah 12 has
> no reason to be any higher than 3, though, and you know what I think of
> Overlord.]]

If we only have three chutzpah levels, then layers will definitely be
neccessary; but why should we only have three? The rule with chutzpah 12
could be 3, yes, but since we want to to supersede all other rules, that
means that if someone proposes to make a rule with chutzpah 4, e also has to
rememeber to raise the other rule's chutzpah. It's a safety thing.

> 2. Add to the LOGAS: "Causing a rule to have a Chutzpah that is (a) not
> used by any other rule, or (b) greater than or equal to that of rule 0".

So if I find a way to lower rule 0's chutzpah, I can kick anyone's ass for
making a new rule? And if we do end up with an empty chutzpah value, it
becomes impossible for anyone to create a rule in there without getting
kicked?

*--------*

> And what, exactly, is the Overlord doing?  And don't go saying that it's
> part of the rules, 'cause so is what you are trying to ban.

The OL isn't 'temporarily' circumventing the rules; it's just another method
of changing the rules. I think people would like it more if, perhaps, the OL
changed from time to time, but I don't think the OL system needs to be
repealed completely.
    Compared to Insta-Props, the OL system is easier to understand, easier
to track, shorter in terms of rule space, faster in terms of fix
implementation, and has Dave as a safety net against abuse, error and
stupidity.
    Also, the Insta-Prop system still needs to wait for people to pay
attention; lots of unpleasant stuff can happen (and has happened) while we
wait for a majority of players to wake up and pay attention. Especially
given how often we get players who join and... disappear... within the space
of a week.
    This is not to say that Insta-Props have no merits - many Nomics do all
their proposals this way, things along the lines of: A proposal gets, say, 5
days of modification time (though its author may cut this time short at will
and call for an immediate vote); then it gets two days of voting time;
voting ends after two days or when enough votes have been cast that further
players voting will be unable to change the outcome; the proposal is then
implemented immediately, and could take effect within a day of its issuance,
if neccessary.

*--------*

> I propose the following :
> {{
> [[ Nobody ever said elves were nice...]]
> 
> Put '1. Overview' at the beginning of rule 1271.
> Append the following to rule 1271:
> {{
> 2. Race-specific effects
> 2.1. Elves
> If a carryable object has a property named Type, and its Type is Iron, an Elf
> may not wear or hold it. An elf may not enter the same grid space as a
> carryable object of type Iron, unless the object is being carried by a
> non-elf.
> }}
> }}

I'd been thinking about bonuses/downsides for the various races; I will not
vote to add a downside for one race without either a benefit for that race,
or similar downsides to the other races.

*--------*

Speaking of which, I've been thinking about giving different races special
abilities; it seems to me that the best way to do this would be to have some
sort of Ability Point system; different abilities would require certain
amounts of ability points. I was also thinking that, as nobody uses it but
me anyway, Force Points could be used as Ability Points (for that matter,
Force Abils could be classified as generic abilities). Here are some ideas
I've had so far (thoughts, comments, suggestions, etc. all welcome):

Human:   None? This could be made the default...?
Orc:     Dunno (Smell bad? Sing awfully?)
Dwarf:   Seek Gold - 4 FP, Get from Admin direction (NSEW) of nearest Shiny
            Thing
         Sprint - 5 FP, speed +5 'til end of nweek, then -5 next nweek
Elf:     Swing - 6 FP, move through square occuppied by Olive Tree without
         it counting towards movement
         Archery - 5 FP, injure a nearby obj. that has HP
Ogre:    Smash - 6 FP, destroy adjacent Big Rock w/out Siren, or do 2d10
         points of dmg to an adjacent Speeder [[Note - this could also be a
         generic ability, where the amt of dmg depends on str]]
Fairie:  Fly - 5 FP, move through Impassable Object like it wasn't there
Blob:    Harden - 8 FP, turn into Big Rock for one nweek
Alien:   Maybe Fly again?
Insect:  Maybe Venom of some sort?
Droid:   Self-Destruct - 2 FP, set loc. and all adjacent squares on fire,
         treat all adjacent MO's like they'd been Pinballed, enter Limbo and
         lose points (Die?)

Also, I was considering possible non-standard races, which could only be
attained with certain tools (I'm thinking rings, etc. here). Here are some
I've considered:
                   
Yeti  
Str: 18
Spd: 3
Wit: 7
Con: 9
Gender(s): Male
Abils:    Smash - same as Ogre
          Freeze - 8 FP, any adjacent Square becomes Frozen, all MO's on it
            get Pinballed, Blobs on it Harden automatically

Gremlin
Str: 9
Spd: 4
Wit: 20
Con: 8
Gender(s): Any
Abils:    Combust - like Droid's Self-Destruct; also Hide - 10 FP, go into
            Hiding for an nweek, then reappear on square of your choice
            (random square? Service Mall of your choice?)

Siren
Str: 5
Spd: 2
Wit: 9
Con: 4
Gender: Female
Abils:    Sing - 8 FP, trap nearby players like real Siren, lasts for one
            nweek; also Perch(?) - 2 FP, move onto Big Rock square, only
            possible while Singing

                    Str     Spd     Wit     Con
Treefolk (Ent?)     30      1       15      15      Any
Demon (Balrog?)     50      3       12      18      Any
Abils?


Any thoughts?
-- 
Wonko

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