Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] Gutting the Carcass

[Mark Karasek <mkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:25:43 +0100, SkArcher <SkArcher@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:

> > > > Besides which, the text of your proposal only matters if your prop 
> > > > passes; so the failure bit is only a failure effect of your prop if 
> > > > your prop passes.
> > >
> > > Not necessarily.  The point of the failure clause is essentially, "If 
> > > you choose to pass this prop, then this will happen.  If you choose to 
> > > fail it, this will happen instead."  The ruleset doesn't preclude the 
> > > latter portion of that statement, but the ruleset does allow things 
> > > that are not otherwise prohibited.  It is legal.  Whether it is ethical 
> > > or proper is the question -- not that either quality is important in 
> > > Nomic.
> >
> > Wrong. Rule 15 says that when a proposal passes "The effects specified 
> > in the proposal occur in the order listed in the proposal.", while 
> > making no such provision for failing proposals (obviously). Remember, 
> > things listed in a proposal are not game actions--they are _proposed_ 
> > game actions, and become game actions if and only if the proposal 
> > passes. Otherwise, when a proposal that, for example, created a rule 
> > failed, the rule would be created anyway because it wasn't specified 
> > that it should only be greated if the proposal passes.
>
> What is different here is that these actions are specified ONLY to happen 
> if and when the prop fails, and therefore fall under the clause;
>
> Other effects specifically related to proposal failure, such as Charm and 
> Entropy adjustments, occur.
>
> from r15 section H
>
> In short, this section specifically says that there can exist actions 
> that are performed when a prop fails, without limiting them to currently 
> extant rules. So a prop with a fail clause technically works. It 
> shouldn't, but it does. See the patch prop that I submitted for a fix.

Without limiting them to currently extant rules? It doesn't need to; 
anything which is not part of or provided for by the ruleset (e.g. game 
actions, societies, etc.) has no effect on the game. The rules do not state 
that the contents of failed proposals have any effect on the game, 
therefore they do not. QED.

PusherRobot
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