Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] Veni, Vidi, Vacancy

[SkArcher <SkArcher@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

05/05/2003 02:05:00, "Baron von Skippy" <baronvonskippy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>> >> >>As the force rule states that the object is moved from its current
>> >> >>location, that would mean you wer moving of your own free will,
>> >>therefore
>> >> >>you cannot
>> >> >>
>> >> >-Define "movement." I'm sure no definition out there as yet involves 
>>the
>> >> >expenditure of Force to lift oneself around the Grid. Therefore it's
>> >>legal.-
>> >> >
>> >> >[[BvS]]
>> >>
>> >>I don't have to define movement; the force rule states 'When a player 
>>Force
>> >>Lifts an object,
>> >>that object is moved from its location to the targeted square.'
>> >>
>> >>This explicitly states that the object in question is moved, and as you
>> >>*are* the object, you are
>> >>therefore moving, and under your own free will, which is explicitly
>> >>outlawed in the Toad rules.
>> >>
>> >>You can move other stuff about, but not yourself.
>> >>
>> >-Rule 301:
>> >B.2. Movement
>> >Once per nweek, any Player on the Grid may announce that e intends to 
>>move
>> >to a new (x,y) coordinate location. Unless otherwise prescribed by the
>> >rules, Players may only move from eir current location to any of the 
>>units
>> >surrounding eir current location. [[E.g. the x and y coordinates of a
>> >player's location may only be increased or decreased by 1 each nweek.]]
>> >
>>
>>Yes, I know, but note the phrase 'Unless otherwise prescribed by the
>>rules'. Moving by Force is defined as 'moving' by the Force rule, and is 
>>therefore an exception
>>to this rule, as this rule defers to it.
>
>-I think this is a debateable point. No one said the target wants to move, 
>just that the mover wants it to move. Extending that, if I move myself, then 
>I want to move myself but I don't care if I am moved - which of those takes 
>precedence? What if I don't want to move but have to out of necessity?-

You state my point yourself here; 'No one said the target wants to move, 
just that the mover wants it to move.'

You are the mover of yourself here; it is your free will which is a cause of your movement. When 
you 'want it to move' you cause the activation of a force power which then moves yourself, thus 
the subsidiary actions are dependent on your free will. Egro, you cannot legally use the force 
power to make yourself move.

>>
>> >Since that's the accepted definition of "movement on the Grid," and since
>> >I'm not doing that, what I'm saying is still legal.
>>
>>This is the base definition of movement on the grid, whose rules are 
>>superceded by rules to which
>>it defers, which is, in effect, any rule which says otherwise.
>
>-No other rule says otherwise.-

The rules on the force say otherwise, by using the word 'moved' to categorise what happens to the 
target of the power in question. This rule therefore comes into conflict with the movement 
section of r301, but r301 defers to it because r301 states that it defers to any other rule that 
proscribes any form of player movement. As in this case the object is you, and the rules state 
that you cannot move of your own free will, you cannot employ a force power to move in this 
manner.

Essentially, because it can be used upon a toad, the Force power rule is a rule which proscribes 
player movement.

>>
>> >Also, using your logic, I could escape Wonko be announcing that I want to
>> >move wherever e does - any time e moves, clearly I am then moving of my 
>>own
>> >free will, and since I can't do that, I have to get left behind or 
>>perhaps
>> >my position is undefined, since it's not clear what is contrary to my 
>>free
>> >will.-
>>
>>No, because your Free Will is not a cause of your movement.
>
>-In that case, I can float myself around because I'm not moving of my own 
>free will, I'm moving with some help from the Force.-

As you yourself stated above, you decide where the object of your force power moves to. Therefore 
your arguement is inherently flawed. Your concept of what the force is and how it does it has no 
bearing upon the game.



SkArcher

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do 
the job.
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