Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] The Daily Recognizer (Wednesday night)

["Glotmorf" <glotmorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 5/2/03 at 11:29 AM Orc In A Spacesuit wrote:

>>From: "Glotmorf" <glotmorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>I rule TRUE on CFI 1481.
>>
>>Analysis:
>>
>>The current situation is messed up beyond reasonable understanding.
>
>No, it is not.  Perhaps you should REFUSE if you are unable to fully
>analyze
>the situation.
>
>>Volumes of email containing accusations, vitriol, denial, mutually
>>contradicting logic and self-interest have contributed to that.
>
>You seem to combining several independent situations.  All that is
>relevant
>is the current state of the rules, and actions attempted with those rules
>in
>the past few nedays.  Proposals in the past, actions in the past, and
>discussion of other topics are irrelevant.
>
>>Given this, it is unreasonable to expect any single rationale, especially
>>one that gives its proponent a win, to be taken more seriously than any
>>other.
>
>I took all the rationales very seriously.  And until you pointed out the
>problem with Wonko's win, I thought he had a win in the bag, and was ready
>to congratulate him.
>
>>A critical-path analysis of the appropriate logic would be useful.
>
>Forgive me if I misunderstand, but I was under the impression that
>critical-path analysis was a process for planning projects or tasks.
>
>What I think would be useful would be an analysis of all the paths of
>logic,
>of all the reasons for things involoved; this may be what you mean by
>critical-path analysis in this context.  I did that in my original "Who
>Wins?" email, and I have proved all responses to it to either be A. Wrong
>or
>B. Irrelevant given the other things involved.
>
>>Barring that, any claim of victory by any individual is equally valid;
>>therefore, any claim of victory by any individual should be considered
>>equally invalid.
>
>Besides the fact that critical-path analysis is not the only way to
>determine validity, and statements earlier in this post make the previous
>sentence irrelevant:
>
>Either validity and invalidity are absolutes, and everything is one or the
>other, and not in between; or validity is a scale, and things can be
>placed
>anywhere on that scale.
>
>If they are absolutes, then saying something is is both valid and invalid
>is
>nonsensical; therefore, in the context you are using, validity is a scale.
>
>If validity is a scale, and everything can have any place on this scale,
>and
>the place on this scale of a thing is unknown, then it is possible that
>that
>thing may be fully valid.
>
>Therefore, the logic proving I won may be fully valid.
>
>I have proved that the logic saying that others have won is invalid.  No
>one
>has proved that the logic saying I won is invalid.  Therefore, the logic
>proving that I have won may possibly still be fully valid.
>
>Another tangent:  If things are unknown, that does not make them equal.
>Pluto is not equal to Uranus; yet both were unknown at some point.  If all
>you knew that there are 'two planets out there somewhere', these two
>planets
>do share the same possibility for what they are, but that does not mean
>they
>share the same values (mass, size, rotation, etc in the planets example)
>within those possibilities.

First of all, some initial points regarding truth and proof...

Just because you say it, that doesn't mean it's true or proven. (This should be obvious.)

Just because I don't respond to your statement, that doesn't mean it's true or proven. (It could mean I didn't see it, or didn't consider it important enough to address, or was otherwise occupied.)

Just because you had the last word in an email exchange regarding your statement, that doesn't mean it's true or proven. (It just means you're more sensitive to caffeine than I am.)

This is not so formally organized a forum for public debate on topics that we can say with assurance that points and subpoints can be considered proved or disproved as a result of coverage.  To set up such an environment is an interesting idea, except it would take time, rules and a judge.  It could probably not be done realistically for big issues in the timeframe of prior-to-ballot time in a given nweek, and it should probably be done on a separate thread or list so that the participants don't unnecessarily spam the chronically disinterested.

Secondly, critical-path analysis isn't just used in project planning.  It has to do with the logical path needed for the most efficient (or sometimes only) way to get from point A to point B.  In this particular case, I was using it to refer to getting from the current state of the rules to the question of whether anyone actually won.

We have not done this.  What we have done is along the lines of:

Wonko: I think the rules say such-and-such, so I take such-and-such an action and win.

Glotmorf: Actually, the rules say such-and-such, and that situation doesn't apply to you, so I take such-and-such an action and *I* win.

Orc in a Spacesuit: Actually, the rules say such-and-such, and that situation doesn't apply to you either, so I take such-and-such an action and *I* win.

Wonko: Actually, the rules say such-and-such, and that situation doesn't apply to you, so you *don't* win.

In other words, each of us has interpreted the state of the rules and the game to reflect our personal interests: "This is the state of the rules such that it affords me a win."  None of our statements necessarily analyzed the state of the rules and the game as they applied to all players, such that it could be determined, independent of any of our personal interests, whether anyone won.

It is my opinion that this has to be done before anyone can talk about winning, and that this can't be done solely in the context of any of the three CFIs.  Therefore, all three of them should be ruled TRUE.  Except that my response was in the context of one of the CFIs, so I rule that one CFI TRUE.

I never said I was unable to fully analyze the situation.

						Glotmorf

-----
The Ivory Mini-Tower: a cyber-anthropologist's blog
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