Daniel Lepage on 27 Apr 2003 21:07:01 -0000

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[spoon-discuss] Return

Well, I left town for two days, and much seems to have happened in my abscence. I'll be stringing out a list of responses in a moment (there are too many to put all in one message) but I'd like to start with a brief note on the possibility that somebody won.

It is my belief that Charters ceased to exist when their definition was removed from the game. Certainly, we took it as a given that objects such as the Cursed Sushi and DimShips winked out of existence upon their undefinitions; that alone seems to suggest that Charters did the same.

Orc makes an analogy to a proposal simply stating, "create an object X with the following properties". It is my belief that an object so created would immediately be destroyed, unless there was some portion of the ruleset which provided for its existence.

My reason for believing this is that *everything* about the game, from proposals to Gremlins to the Grid, exists solely because the rules say it does. There is no actual object called Barney which the ruleset merely records the behavior of; there is only a virtual object referred to by the rules as 'Barney', and thus part of the rules. If we were to repeal the definition of Barney, the 'Barney' that exists as far as the game is concerned would cease to exist entirely.

An object created directly by proposal is a bit of a sticky issue... I could see the claim being made that the r15, which states that when a proposal passes "The effects specified in the proposal occur in the order listed in the proposal.", implicitly defines objects created by said effects... But that's not the issue here, because Charters were not defined by a proposal which said, "let there be charters that do this:$BLAH"; they were defined by a rule which said, "There may be charters; charters are this : $BLAH". When that rule, or at least the portion of it that defined charters, ceased to exist, all Charters did as well.

The attempted wins other than mine all relied on preexisting charters; so they all failed. The creation of new charters is, I admit, prohibited; so my win scam failed.

So nobody won. Let's just fix things and go on.


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