Baron von Skippy on 23 Oct 2002 16:57:24 -0000


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Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] It

On the grounds that, "It dispenses tea or coffee!" (r1148/0, __IT__), I get a hundred cups of Tea from It. I drink them all, setting my BAC to -100 and 
my style to 100d4.

I buy the style attribute "Wired".
Well, it dispenses tea or coffee, but I have a plethora of reasons why that didn't work: It does dispense, but when? Who says it dispenses 100 right now? Where does the dispensed tea go? Why should you be able to get some? No cups. You need to drink a Cup of Tea, and I don't see any cups.
Ok, so a plethora appears to be 3. I had more, but that about covers it. 

Orc In A Spacesuit
sticks his mouth on It's spout, and dispenses away


-Permissability of the unprohibited, my good green sir.-

                                                  [[BvS]]

Rule 393/0, __The All-Important Default Case__, states:
"Players may not change the game state. This rule defers to all other rules." I don't see the It rule allowing anybody to get a cup of coffee. It just dispenses them. Transfering them to your possession would be a change of game state. And still, no cups. Just rivers of tea. 

I know why you were Knight of the Gnome Scam.

Orc in a Spacesuit
mixes tea and coffee, and drinks it.
-Because I wrote the pricing rules that let Wonko buy Gnomes for less than he was ditching them for? What does THAT have to do with this? 
By the way:

Rule 18/2
Permissibility of the Unprohibited
With the exception of Rule Changes whatever is not prohibited or regulated by the Ruleset is permitted and unregulated.-
I would say that changes to the game state are regulated by the ruleset. And adding a cup of coffee or tea to your inventory is a change to the game state. Especially if there is no 'cup' anywhere. 

Orc In A Spacesuit
gargles some tea
-Champagne, then. Anyone remember how you could (maybe you still can; I don't suppose that was important enough to fix) simply grab Champagne from the air and drink of it? Those machines you see sometimes that dispense bad coffee into styrofoam cups, they "dispense coffee." One does not need to add to most listeners that they also give over a cup. The "It" rule says nowhere "It doesn't give you cups!" so I assume that it does, via the Permissibility rule.- 

Must we do this?
A. You could never create new Glasses of Champagne, the CFI's stated such.
-You sure? I thought it was legal the time uin did it. Feh, this is slightly different enough for me to ignore your reasoning until a CFI backs it.- 
I belive the CFI 688 is the applicable one.

-Ah. Still, though, this is a different situation.-
Yep. So you just confirmed that I won that point, as your only argument for that point was that since it was legal to make Glasses of Champagne, it was legal to make styrofoam cups, and somehow get the dispensed coffee into them, and somehow get those cups in your possession, which would be a change of gamestate.
-But I believe Wonko and Glotmorf have taken over this point, so my inability to defend it is immaterial. Besides, you keep saying the same thing over and over, so losing one facet of the argument doesn't change that I've cracked all the others, and that I'm mixing metaphors like a garbage can full of PJP...-
B. Yes, those machines may dispense Coffee, but you have to actually bring the cup there. And even if you could somehow summon a cup, and got It to dispense coffee into the Cup, it would be a "Cup" that "has Coffee in it", and not a Cup of Coffee.
-Who says I don't have a cup? I'm carrying about 30 alcoholic beverages. I /have/ cups. And forgive my presumption, but a cup with coffee in it is a Cup of Coffee according to standard usage of English.-
So how does a Cup of Whatever turn into a Cup of Coffee? That's a change of game state, which is regulated. Just because It dispenses coffee somewhere doesn't change a Cup. Heck, with that reasoning, I could turn all your Cups into Cups of Sheep Gnomes.
-I could take one of my containers, drain it, then refill it. You can't alter things in my posession; that's illegal.-
Ok, then a cup on the grid. Or in my possession. Or I could turn a cup into a Cup of The Drinker of this Cup is awarded a win.
-No, because such a thing does not exist, so doing so would be altering the gamestate.-
That is correct. Changing a cup into something else is a change of the gamestate. Thank you for seeing my logic and conceding this point. With this one point, I win. (the argument, not the game)
-Except you don't. I was coming up with a way around your "But we have no cups" argument. Coffee comes in cups, or at least in volumes of one Cup, where "Cup" is a unit of volume. The rule never says that it's in anything. Maybe I'm wearing insulating gloves and holding the coffee in my (cupped) hands. Can you prove that that is illegal? Perhaps the Grid has no gravity, so It shoots out balls of coffee which float around, and I captured 20 or so.-
C. No rule says that It does give you cups, or has cups, or create cups. 
-No rule says It doesn't.-
No rule says it does. No rule says "Orc in a Spacesuit doesn't win the game", or "BvS doesn't give all eir points to Wonko", but these don't happen just because no rule says it doesn't happen. I'm not gonna bother with the details here.
-Those are all changes in the gamestate. Assuming that Coffee comes in cups isn't, espcially when Coffee is /defined/ to have a natural unit of Cups.- 
-Point two closed. Point goes to Baron.-
Whee! It doesn't win you the argument, though. I really don't care if you have a different interpertation of what a Cup is (an amount or object). 
-Doesn't lose me it, either.-
D. Repeat after me: When you AssUMe, you make an Ass out of U and Me.
-Okay. When you assume, you make an ass out of you and... should be I. Here's one. When I assume, your As can Su Me. I'll make assumptions whenever I want.- 
-Whee... stubbornness point for the Baron!-
My As (sic) Su's (sic again) Baron von Skippy for all eir points, BNS, and any and all coffee and tea e may ever have.
-Not defined under the current ruleset. I interpret "Su" to mean "give an amount equal to" which means you just doubled my holdings out-of-pocket. Thank you, but you need to send that to -business.-
But we aren't using the ruleset, we are using the entirety of the English Language and Grammar, which has meaning even if there are misspellings. In the context you gave, you obviously mean Sue, even if you intentionally misspelled it. You said my As (another misspelling) can sue you. So it does so.
-Except I didn't say "Ass" or "Sue." I said "As" and "Su." We all know what "as" means. "Su" means nothing in English. (It does mean "known" in French, "eir" in Spanish, and "on" in Italian, though.) Remember, this game has to be literal. If you leave room for interpretation, then funny things happen. Like people claiming a lot of coffee. So, I said nothing. Which isn't something that can often be said of me.-
E. Yes, It dispenses coffee, but why should you get any of it? And why should it have dispensed enough for even one cup by now? 
-Because:
1) "It has been featured in Star Trek and can heat a small house"
I take this to mean it's a replicator which can make enough coffee to warm my house up nicely. 
Well, you taking it that way doesn't mean jack.

-And your opinion has more merit?-
No. The facts do. I'm stating the fact that your opinions don't change reality. 
-Ditto, Orc. Ditto.-
Yup. Now, getting back to the original point (and the facts): No location is defined for the Coffee, so it has no location. There is absolutly nothing which puts it in your possession.
-Where are my Entropy points held? My BNS? Can I place 1000 BNS on the Grid? No. I can't put Coffee on the Grid, either. Coffee has no location.- 


2) "It's a small Brazillian child trained in the art of satisfaction!"
They grow coffee in Brazil, and I would be satisfied if I had a lot of coffee. 
And?
-Therefore, the small Brazilian child gives me coffee. I'd also be satisfied if you yielded this argument. Wonder how he'll deal with that...-
Just because It's trained doesn't mean that it performs. I would be very satisfied if I were awarded a win and everyone rescinded eir CFI's and the game was unbroken.
-But they don't do that in Brazil. They do make good coffee, though. Let's talk what's possible. A child could be trained as a server.-
But is It possible? Huh? Exactly how is this child going to brew you this coffee, and get it to you anyway?
-I don't know, he's the one who was trained in satisfaction. He can figure it out. You might as well ask me where Gnomes come from.-
3) "It's a patented method of running around in circles witout getting dizzy." 
Well, caffine makes you hyper...

So?
-So? I drink a lot of coffee, I get hyper. I get hyper, I run in circles. If you run in biig enough circles, you don't get dizzy. Therefore, coffee is the patented method mentioned.-
Just because cars have wheels, and bicycles have wheels too, does not make bicycles be cars.
-No, but I could try to prove that, too, and you'd have an interesting time disproving it with a very limited number of facts and no actual observations of the two in action.-
Yes, you COULD try to prove that, and fail. You have less facts and observations that I do on the matter.
-Fewer, not less. (Sorry, grammatical pet peeve.) Anyway, I could try to prove (hmm, this ought to get my ass kicked) that It is a Black Hole Bonus box based on the line "It's a trouser press that sends and receives text messages! It can communicate with your pogo stick and traps small animals." Well, Gnomes are small animals, you could say, and Black Holes suck in Gnomes. Therefore, It is a Black Hole. If it is a Bonus Box, it is on the Grid. Therefore... I'll get to tihs later.- 


I think my point is made...

I don't.

-That much is clear.-

Glad we agree on something.

-That we're both to damn pigheaded to give this up?-


No, that I don't think your point is made.

-I thnk we're both too damn pigheaded to give this up.-
oh, and I want to note that I voted against It becasue It is so damn ambiguous...-
I went through it all for anything applicable to the game before I voted yes. I voted yes to get the Contrary Vote point, and get 1/2 the points if it actually passed.
-But as we can see, it has LOTS of applicable pieces, if you interpret them right.- 
No, only if you interpert them wrong.
-You can't say what's right or wrong. A CFI judge could, but if I CFI, you'll be Defendant, so you still can't say.-
I can too say. "Your Interpertation Is Wrong". There I just did. But, as always, saying something doesn't make it true. It just so happens that my statement is indeed true.
-Only from your point of view. Don't make me sing the Galaxy Song to tell you how little your /opinion/ counts for.- 


F. Can you guys give this up and give Dave a break?

-Us guys being you and me? Okay, give it up.-

You guys being bd and you and Wonko.

-bd's been pretty quiet so far. You, however...-

Right about when bd issues a big fat stupid CFI.

-No, two intelligent CFIs, albeit not well written.-


No, two short and stupid CFI's, that are indeen not well written.

-Yet do more between them than anything we've said here.-



Ok, now let's end this sillyness.

-I haven't been silly in days.-
Except for every time you try to get coffee from It, or try to defend doing so. 
-It's hard to look serious talking about satisfying Brazilian children...-


Orc In A Spacesuit
wonders if BvS is actually serious


[[BvS]]
[[Is.]]


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