Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] It

["Glotmorf" <glotmorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 10/21/02 at 11:29 PM Orc In A Spacesuit wrote:

>>From: "Glotmorf" <glotmorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>On 10/21/02 at 10:13 PM Orc In A Spacesuit wrote:
>>
>> >>From: "Baron von Skippy" <baronvonskippy@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >>>>>>>>>>On the grounds that, "It dispenses tea or coffee!" (r1148/0,
>> >>>>>>>>>>__IT__), I get
>> >>>>>>>>>>a hundred cups of Tea from It. I drink them all, setting my BAC
>> >to
>> >>>>>>>>>>-100 and
>> >>>>>>>>>>my style to 100d4.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>I buy the style attribute "Wired".
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>Well, it dispenses tea or coffee, but I have a plethora of
>>reasons
>> >>>>>>>>>why that didn't work:
>> >>>>>>>>>It does dispense, but when?  Who says it dispenses 100 right
>now?
>> >>>>>>>>>Where does the dispensed tea go?  Why should you be able to get
>> >>>>>>>>>some?
>> >>>>>>>>>No cups.  You need to drink a Cup of Tea, and I don't see any
>>cups.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>Ok, so a plethora appears to be 3.  I had more, but that about
>> >>>>>>>>>covers it.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>Orc In A Spacesuit
>> >>>>>>>>>sticks his mouth on It's spout, and dispenses away
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>-Permissability of the unprohibited, my good green sir.-
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>                                                   [[BvS]]
>> >>>>>>>Rule 393/0, __The All-Important Default Case__, states:
>> >>>>>>>"Players may not change the game state. This rule defers to all
>> >other
>> >>>>>>>rules."
>> >>>>>>>I don't see the It rule allowing anybody to get a cup of coffee.
>>It
>> >>>>>>>just dispenses them.  Transfering them to your possession would
>be
>>a
>> >>>>>>>change of game state.  And still, no cups.  Just rivers of tea.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>I know why you were Knight of the Gnome Scam.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Orc in a Spacesuit
>> >>>>>>>mixes tea and coffee, and drinks it.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>-Because I wrote the pricing rules that let Wonko buy Gnomes for
>>less
>> >>>>>>than he was ditching them for? What does THAT have to do with this?
>> >>>>>>By the way:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Rule 18/2
>> >>>>>>Permissibility of the Unprohibited
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>With the exception of Rule Changes whatever is not prohibited or
>> >>>>>>regulated by the Ruleset is permitted and unregulated.-
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>I would say that changes to the game state are regulated by the
>> >ruleset.
>> >>>>>  And adding a cup of coffee or tea to your inventory is a change to
>> >the
>> >>>>>game state.  Especially if there is no 'cup' anywhere.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Orc In A Spacesuit
>> >>>>>gargles some tea
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>-Champagne, then. Anyone remember how you could (maybe you still
>can;
>>I
>> >>>>don't suppose that was important enough to fix) simply grab Champagne
>> >>>>from the air and drink of it? Those machines you see sometimes that
>> >>>>dispense bad coffee into styrofoam cups, they "dispense coffee." One
>> >does
>> >>>>not need to add to most listeners that they also give over a cup. The
>> >>>>"It" rule says nowhere "It doesn't give you cups!" so I assume that
>it
>> >>>>does, via the Permissibility rule.-
>> >>>
>> >>>Must we do this?
>> >>>A. You could never create new Glasses of Champagne, the CFI's stated
>> >such.
>> >>-You sure? I thought it was legal the time uin did it. Feh, this is
>> >>slightly different enough for me to ignore your reasoning until a CFI
>> >backs
>> >>it.-
>> >I belive the CFI 688 is the applicable one.
>> >>>B. Yes, those machines may dispense Coffee, but you have to actually
>> >bring
>> >>>the cup there.  And even if you could somehow summon a cup, and got It
>> >to
>> >>>dispense coffee into the Cup, it would be a "Cup" that "has Coffee in
>> >it",
>> >>>and not a Cup of Coffee.
>> >>-Who says I don't have a cup? I'm carrying about 30 alcoholic
>beverages.
>> >I
>> >>/have/ cups. And forgive my presumption, but a cup with coffee in it
>is
>>a
>> >>Cup of Coffee according to standard usage of English.-
>> >So how does a Cup of Whatever turn into a Cup of Coffee?  That's a
>change
>> >of
>> >game state, which is regulated.  Just because It dispenses coffee
>> >somewhere
>> >doesn't change a Cup.  Heck, with that reasoning, I could turn all your
>> >Cups
>> >into Cups of Sheep Gnomes.
>> >>>C. No rule says that It does give you cups, or has cups, or create
>>cups.
>> >>-No rule says It doesn't.-
>> >No rule says it does.  No rule says "Orc in a Spacesuit doesn't win the
>> >game", or "BvS doesn't give all eir points to Wonko", but these don't
>> >happen
>> >just because no rule says it doesn't happen.  I'm not gonna bother with
>> >the
>> >details here.
>> >>>D. Repeat after me:  When you AssUMe, you make an Ass out of U and Me.
>> >>-Okay. When you assume, you make an ass out of you and... should be I.
>> >>Here's one. When I assume, your As can Su Me. I'll make assumptions
>> >>whenever I want.-
>> >>>E. Yes, It dispenses coffee, but why should you get any of it?  And
>why
>> >>>should it have dispensed enough for even one cup by now?
>> >>-Because:
>> >>1) "It has been featured in Star Trek and can heat a small house"
>> >>I take this to mean it's a replicator which can make enough coffee to
>> >warm
>> >>my house up nicely.
>> >Well, you taking it that way doesn't mean jack.
>> >>2) "It's a small Brazillian child trained in the art of satisfaction!"
>> >>They grow coffee in Brazil, and I would be satisfied if I had a lot of
>> >>coffee.
>> >And?
>> >>3) "It's a patented method of running around in circles witout getting
>> >>dizzy."
>> >>Well, caffine makes you hyper...
>> >So?
>> >>I think my point is made...
>> >I don't.
>> >>oh, and I want to note that I voted against It becasue It is so damn
>> >>ambiguous...-
>> >I went through it all for anything applicable to the game before I voted
>> >yes.  I voted yes to get the Contrary Vote point, and get 1/2 the points
>> >if
>> >it actually passed.
>> >
>> >>>F. Can you guys give this up and give Dave a break?
>> >>-Us guys being you and me? Okay, give it up.-
>> >You guys being bd and you and Wonko.
>>
>>Don't forget me.  Now, let's see...There's nothing in the description of
>It
>>that indicates it's on the grid, or even can be.  That means either It
>>doesn't exist or its location is irrelevant.
>
>Who says it even has to have a location? Rules don't have locations.
>Neither the The Clock.

Hold that thought.

>>There are various points in its description that indicate It's designed
>to
>>dispense coffee.  Since there's nothing that regulates the actual
>quantity
>>of coffee, the quantity is unregulated; therefore an infinite amount of
>>coffee is permissible.
>
>But It dispenses, not you, or Bvs, or Wonko, or bd, or anyone else.  It
>may
>dispense any amount, but the amount is not up to you.

It's gotta be up to someone.  Are you suggesting that we add work to Dave by having him determine it every time someone requests coffee from It?  I think it's simpler to say that the amount of coffee dispensed is unregulated, and therefore specifiable.

>>Nevertheless, for coffee to have game-specific application, it must be
>>expressed in units of measurement.  Units of measurement, however, do not
>>in any way automatically imply measuring containers.  An ocean contains
>>some huge number of gallons of water, but said water cannot be assumed to
>>reside in an equally huge number of one-gallon jugs.
>>
>>The rules stipulate that coffee, for it to have its therapeutic value,
>must
>>come in quantities of "cups".  It does not say it must occupy containers
>>whose capacities are each one cup; it merely indicates the quantity of
>>coffee to be used must be sufficient to fill a container whose capacity
>is
>>one cup.
>
>Whatever.
>
>>Therefore, if one somehow manages to get into one's mouth a sufficient
>>quantity of coffee to fill X number of one-cup-capacity containers, one
>can
>>be said to have consumed X cups of coffee.  And since the location of It
>is
>>either undefined or irrelevant, it's either flat-out impossible to get
>>coffee from It (which would seem to contradict the It rule) or one can
>>drink dispensed coffee from It regardless of any other location-related
>>status.
>
>Wrong. "if one somehow manages to get into one's mouth" does not
>constitute
>Drinking the Coffee.  A Cup of Coffee must be in the possion of the
>drinker.
>  And since putting something in your possession is a change of game
>state,
>you can't put dispensed Coffee into your possession, and therfore can't
>drink it.  And absolutly nothing else puts the dispensed coffee anywhere,
>so
>it has no location.

My unabridged Webster's defines "dispense" as "to deal out, distribute."  To dispense coffee, then, is not the same as leaking coffee, or dumping it on the ground, or generating a flow.  It means the coffee has to have a destination.  It means it transfers coffee from its possession to the possession of some other entity, or collection of entities.  And since the destination isn't specified, it's unregulated, so it might as well be specified by players.  Unless you were suggesting Dave make a decision on the legitimacy of each claim of a cup of coffee dispensed by It?

As for the location of the distributed coffee, I believe you said up above, "Who says it has to have a location?"

>>I have said.  Maybe not officially, but still...
>
>Wbere does that come from?

An old C.J. Cherryh novel.  I forget the name, but among other things it involved an ancient powerful race that dwelt in a little pocket realm and only came out into the normal world when things got really, really bad.  To see one of them was to be terrified.  To actually hear a proclamation from them could induce panic.  "I have said" was at the end of a proclamation made by one of them in the middle of a battle.  Somehow it seemed appropriate for a CFI ruling closing.

Funny...in all these nyears you're the first person to ask about it.  May I treat you to a cup of coffee?  Open wide...

						Glotmorf


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