Re: [spoon-discuss] societies and corporations discussion

["Glotmorf" <glotmorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 10/20/02 at 10:44 PM Orc In A Spacesuit wrote:

>Ok... Here's my society fix.  I include a few definitions in the
>beginning
>of the 2 rules I modify, so that I can just delete those definitions to
>mek
>this all compatible with the uber.
>
>I think the Standard Methods are pretty much useless, as only M-Tek uses
>any, and it just uses one.  However, they remain in this draft.  What do
>you
>guys think?

The whole point of standard methods is that society charter rules can't be applied to non-members, or to the gamestate in general, but standard methods are part of the rules and therefore can so apply.  So a society charter can make use of these predetermined rules hooks without attempting to over-reach its scope.  I'd hardly call that useless.  Just because it hasn't been used much doesn't make it so.

>I don't propose the following, cause this is in -discuss:
>{{__Societies and Corporations__
>
>Change the rule __Societies__ to read the following:
>{{
>
>A. Definition
>In this rule, an Independent Entity is the Administrator or a Player
>In this rule, a Dependent Entity is a Gremlin, Society or Corporation.
>In this rule, an Entity is either of the two above.
>A Society is a group of one or more entities known as Members of the
>Society.
>
>B. Society Rules
>
>A Society may have internal rules that are binding upon its Members.
>Internal rules defer to game rules.
>
>A Society's internal rules consist of public rules and private rules.
>Public
>rules must be readable by all Players in the game, and are enforcible at
>the
>game level. Private rules are freeform; maintenance and enforcement of
>private rules is the responsibility of the Members of the Society.
>Internal
>rules do not allow entities to perform actions in ways that they otherwise
>cannot.
>
>Public rules may include conditions in which a Society performs actions.
>(A
>Society is an Entity, so may perform actions, such as tranfer points, join
>another society, propose... etc, of course subject to all applicable rules
>and restrictions in the rules.)
>
>A public rule can be a reference to a Standard Method. A Standard Method
>is
>a rule defined within this game rule that regulates a particular action. A
>Standard Method is not an internal rule of a Society, and is not binding
>upon a Society or its Members, unless a public rule of that Society
>references it. A Society's public rules can regulate actions over and
>above
>what cited Standard Methods regulate, but those public rules defer to game
>rules.
>
>A Standard Method must be uniquely identified within this game rule, and
>must be unambiguously referenced by a Society's public rule for it to be
>binding.  A Standard Method does not permit an Entity to do something
>which
>is otherwise illegal (just because you have a standard method to propose
>doesn't mean you can, regardless of bandwidth).
>
>C. Society Charter
>
>A Society must have a Charter, which contains its public rules. This
>collection of charters may contain other pertinent information, and the
>Administrator is encouraged to include such information as whether or not
>the Society still exists in this collection. The Charter is considered a
>game document, and is maintained by the Administrator in a collection of
>Charters.  This charter may not also be a rule [[for clarity; if you want
>to
>create a society through proposal, just create one, rather than through a
>rule]].

I still think "the Administrator is encouraged to (X)" is a do-nothing.  If he decides not to, or neglects to, we have no recourse.  And an encouraged activity isn't a responsibility, so I don't think it can be assigned to a minister.

>A Society's Charter can only be modified by the Society or its Members if
>the Society has a public rule stating the method for doing so, and if the
>Society has no members that are Dependent Entities.  Any such changes do
>not
>take effect until the end of the nweek, or after 3 ndays, whichever is
>longer.  Such changes are not binding on and do not affect On Leave
>players,
>and any player coming Off Leave after a change has 3 ndays in which to
>either leave the society or accept the changes.  The changes are binding
>and
>do affect that member upon the time limit being reached or the member
>accepting the changes.

The On Leave bit is okay, but the 3 nday bit is cumbersome, especially since it can span the end of an nweek.

>If a Charter referrs to an entity by name, and the name of what it referrs
>to changes, the Charter is modified to refer to the same entity, unless a
>rule or the Charter states othewise.

"Refers," not "referrs."  And why should this only be true for society charters, and not the entire game?

>Standard Methods for Modifying a Society's Charter are:
>
>C.1. Unanimous Consent
>
>In the first half of a given nweek, a Member of the Society may propose a
>modification to the Society's Charter on the public forum. If all Members
>of
>the Society then, in the same nweek as the modification was proposed,
>state
>in the public forum that they agree to the modification, the modification
>is
>applied to the Charter.
>
>D. Membership
>
>An entity can be a Member of one or more Societies. A Society must have at
>least one Member upon its creation; if a Society ever has no Members, it
>ceases to exist.
>
>D.1. Joining a Society
>
>An entity may join a Society if the Society's public rules permit em to do
>so. If a Society's public rules provide a set of circumstances whereby an
>entity may become a Member, those circumstances must be met before the
>entity becomes a Member.
>
>Membership in a Society is voluntary. An entity is not required to become
>a
>Member of a Society, and may refuse membership if offered or declared by
>the
>Society by stating said refusal on a public forum. However, once an entity
>has been offered membership or has been declared a Member, and has
>performed
>an action as a Member, e is considered to have joined the Society, and its
>internal rules are binding upon em.
>
>Standard Methods for Joining a Society are:
>
>D.1.1. Open Enrollment
>
>Any Player who is not a Member of the Society may issue a Request for
>Admittance (RFA) to the public forum. If a majority of the Members of the
>Society deny the RFA within four ndays of its issuance, then the RFA is
>destroyed and has no effect. Otherwise, the Player who issued the RFA
>becomes a Member of the Society.
>
>D.1.2. Closed Enrollment
>
>Any Player who is not a Member of the Society may issue a Request for
>Admittance (RFA) to the public forum. If any Member of the Society denies
>the RFA within four ndays of its issuance, then the RFA is destroyed and
>has
>no effect. Otherwise, the Player who issued the RFA becomes a Member of
>the
>Society.
>
>D.1.3. Unanimous Invitation
>
>A Member of the Society may extend an Invitation on the public forum to a
>Player who is not a Member. If all Members of the Society state their
>agreement with the Invitation, and if the Player who is Invited states
>that
>e accepts the Invitation, e becomes a Member of the Society.
>
>D.2. Leaving a Society
>
>Membership in a Society is voluntary. An entity who is considered to have
>joined a Society is not required to remain a Member. A Society's public
>rules may regulate the method for a Member to leave the Society, and said
>method is binding upon the departing member, but it cannot prohibit
>leaving
>the Society altogether, and may bind the entity upon the entity once e has
>departed.
>
>Standard Methods for Leaving a Society are:
>
>(none at this time)
>
>D.3. Ousting a Member
>
>A Society can Oust a Member (terminate said Member's membership; cause
>said
>Member to cease to be a Member) if the Society's public rules state the
>circumstances under which Ousting can happen. Said circumstances may
>include
>aspects of the gamestate, aspects of a Member, actions of Members, or a
>combination of these.
>
>Standard Methods for Ousting a Member are:
>
>D.3.1. Open Ousting
>
>Any Player who is a Member of the Society may issue a Writ of Exclusion
>(WOE) towards any other Member to the public forum. If a majority of the
>Members of the Society other than the target of the WOE deny the WOE
>within
>four ndays of its issuance, then the WOE is destroyed and has no effect.
>Otherwise, the Member who was targeted by the WOE ceases to be a Member of
>the Society. Such Oustings take effect at the beginning of the next Voting
>Period.
>
>D.3.2. Closed Ousting
>
>Any Player who is a Member of the Society may issue a Writ of Exclusion
>(WOE) towards any other Member to the public forum. If any Member of the
>Society other than the target of the WOE denies the WOE within four ndays
>of
>its issuance, then the WOE is destroyed and has no effect. Otherwise, the
>Member who was targeted by the WOE ceases to be a Member of the Society.
>Such evictions take effect at the beginning of the next Voting Period.
>
>E. Resources
>
>A Society may have the properties Bandwidth, Points, and/or BNS, if such
>is
>stated in the charter of that Society.  Any Entity that has any of these
>may
>transfer any positive amount to any Society that has that property.  The
>default values for these properties is 0.

Why limit pooled resources to these?  This knocks out WBE, which requires pooled units, and anything else a given society might want to share, such as proxy votes, grid objects, airspeeders, style points, etc.

Plus, this loses the restriction that the charter must state how said resources are transferred to and from the pool.  Nor does it say what hapens to those resources if the society disappears.

>Just to be perfectly clear, any Entity that has Points, Bandwidth, and/or
>BNS may transfer any positive amount of those to any other Entity that has
>the tranferred property.
>
>F. Society Proposals (Chutzpah 2)
>
>Beginning in the nweek after the one in which they are created, Societies
>may submit proposals to the game ballot just as Players can; these are
>referred to as Society Proposals, or Club Props. If the properties of a a
>Society would be changed by the rules as a result of voting, and the
>Society
>does not have that property, all members of that society get that change
>divided by the number of members in that society with that property,
>rounded
>up.  Submitting a proposal does require the society to have and pay
>bandwidth, just as it does with players.

This is cumbersome.  This means if a society is to make a proposal, it must have bandwidth, which presumably must be explicitly given it by its members.  This takes out the automatic bandwidth-sharing mechanisms that currently make club propping convenient.

It also creates possible infinite loops with dimensions spiraling into positive infinity.  The prop I submitted which allowed societies to be members in each other, which you voted against, prevented one society to be a member of a society which was a member of it.  This prop here allows societies to belong to each other, which means if society A's prop passes, its members get points, and if society B is a member of A, B's members get points.  But if A is a member of B, A's members then get points from B, and then B's members get more points from A, and so on.  Since points from a club prop are always rounded up, it means everyone in either A or B would get an infinite number of points from a single proposal.  I.E., instant SOE.

>When a Society submits a proposal, it must state a member who can propose
>(if e were freed of bandwidth restrictions) of the society to be the
>Presenter.  If a property is referenced in a rule that the Society does
>not
>have but the Presenter does, the rule looks to the Presenter's property.
>Such properties may result in restrictions on the proposal, as defined by
>the rules (This is for BAC and such.  I'm pretty much making it such that
>one person actually delivers the prop).

That eliminates much of the point of having the society deliver the prop.

>A Society may not make proposals if the number of Members not On Leave in
>the Society is less than 2 or greater than one half the number of Off
>Leave
>Players in the game.
>
>If a Player leaves a Society, and the Society made Society Proposals
>earlier
>that same nweek while the Player was a Member, those Society Proposals
>still
>count against the Player's Bandwidth, and the ballot results of those
>Society Proposals will still affect the Player's Score, Charm and Entropy.
>The Player will not, however, auto-vote Yes for the Society Proposals.

You dropped the part where it says members do auto-vote yes.

Plus, the way you had it worded in earlier paragraphs, club props wouldn't count against a player's bandwidth anyway.

>Standard Methods for Submitting Society Proposals are:
>
>F.1. Open Proposing
>
>In the first six ndays of an nweek, a Member of the Society may propose a
>Society Proposal to the public forum. If a majority of Members other than
>the proposing Member deny the Society Proposal in the same nweek as the
>proposal is proposed, the proposal is removed from the ballot and has no
>effect.
>
>F.2. Closed Proposing
>
>In the first six ndays of an nweek, a Member of the Society may propose a
>Society Proposal to the public forum. If any Member other than the
>proposing
>Member denies the Society Proposal in the same nweek as the proposal is
>proposed, the proposal is removed from the ballot and has no effect.

None of these methods, nor the earlier paragraphs, say how a Presenter is selected, or mandate a method for picking a Presenter.

>F.3. Unanimous Proposing
>
>In the first six ndays of an nweek, a Member of the Society may propose a
>Society Proposal to the public forum. In 0the same nweek that the proposal
>is proposed, all Members of the Society must agree to the proposal in the
>public forum; otherwise the proposal is removed from the ballot and has no
>effect.
>
>G. Creating a Society
>
>A Society may be created by a proposal, or by a Player action.  When a
>Society is created, the creator or proposer automatically becomes a member
>of that Society.  The proposal or action may also include an Invitation
>List, which is a list of entities.  Any entity on an Invitation List for a
>society may join it by Accepting the Invitation.  If the Society would be
>created by Proposal, an Entity on the List may Accept the Invitation prior
>to the passing of the proposal, and may cancel the Acceptance at any time
>prior to the passing of the proposal.  [[I highly suggest that there be a
>way to modify the Invitation List in the Charter.]]  A proposal may create
>a
>Society by stating the Society's Charter.  A player may only create a
>Society through Player Action once per nweek, and only during the first 5
>days of an nweek.

There may be a very good reason for creating a society with general criteria for membership, without naming particular members, and without the proposer necessarily being a member.  The Upper House is one such.

>H. Destroying a Society
>
>A Society may be destroyed by a proposal, by the leaving or Ousting of all
>its Members, or, if the Society has a public rule stating the method for
>it,
>by the actions of its Members. A destroyed Society's Charter is discarded,
>and the Society ceases to exist.
>
>If the proposal destroying the Society, or the Society's public rules for
>the destruction of the Society, do not state that its proposed but
>unimplemented Society Proposals remain on the ballot, the Society's
>unimplemented Society Proposals are removed from the ballot and have no
>effect.
>
>Standard Methods for Destroying a Society are:
>
>H.1. Unanimous Dissolution
>
>Any time prior to the end of a nweek, a Member of the Society can declare
>the Society's destruction on the public forum. If all Members of the
>Society
>agree to the destruction in the same nweek as the declaration, the Society
>is immediately destroyed.
>}}
>[[End of revision to __Societies__]]
>
>Modify the rule __Corporations__ (1149/0) to read the following:
>{{
>A. Definition
>In this rule, an Independent Entity is the Administrator or a Player
>In this rule, a Dependent Entity is a Gremlin, Society, or a Corporation.
>In this rule, an Entity is either of the two above.
>A Corporation is a group of one or more entities known as Employees of the
>Corporation.
>
>Once per nweek, if e has not done so already, an Entity may create a
>Corporation, giving it a uniquely identifying name and .  A Corporation
>may
>have Employees, which are entities, and an Owner, which is an Entity.  The
>Owner may cause a Corporation to take legal actions.
>Entities may Apply to a Corporation, and may Withdraw an application.
>Corporations may Hire an Entitity who has Applied to that Corporation and
>not subsequently Withdrawn eir application.  When an Entity is Hired by a
>Corporation, e becomes an Employee of that Corporation.
>A Corporation may Fire an Employee.  Any Employee who is Fired by a
>Corporation is no longer an Employee of that Corporation.
>An Employee of a Corporation may Quit that Corporation.  Any Employee who
>Quits a Corporation is no longer an Employee of that Corporation.
>
>A Corporation may confer and withdraw Positions to its Employees and
>Owner.
>Positions are not Titles, and do not affect the game in any way, except
>when
>a Rule, Proposal, Charter, or Mission Statement refers specifically to an
>Employee of that Company with that Position.  (So having the Position
>"Glotmorf" in Corporation "Wonko's Slaves" wouldn't cause a Charter
>referring to "Glotmorf" to refer to the person with that position; the
>Charter would have to refer to the "The Glotmorf of Wonko's Slaves".)
>A Corporation may change it's Mission Statement.  Such changes take effect
>at the end of the nweek in which the change is made.
>
>A Corporation may have a Mission Statement, which defines conditions in
>which the Corporation takes Actions (such as hiring, fireing, payroll,
>etc),
>includes restrictions on when and if certain Actions may be taken by the
>Corporation, and may include conditions in which the Corporation's Mission
>Statement is changed.  The Mission Statement defers to all other game
>rules,
>but does control what action the Owner may cause the Corporation to take.
>The Mission Statement cannot cause any Employee to do anything (but may
>cause Employees to be Fired and/or get no Pay if e doesn't).
>
>If a Mission Statement referrs to an entity by name, and the name of what
>it
>referrs to changes, the Mission Statement is modified to refer to the same
>entity, unless a rule or the Mission Statement states othewise.
>A Corporation has Points and BNS, and the default values for those is 0.
>The Owner, Employees, Point, BNS, and Mission Statement of all
>Corporations
>must be publicly available.
>
>If the Mission Statement of a Corporation confers a Position to the Owner
>of
>a Corporation, and that entity ceases to have that Position, e also ceases
>to be the Owner of that Corporation.  If an entity gains that Position,
>all
>other Employees
>
>[[Some notes:
>A Society named "Thingies, Inc. Board of Directors" would make a good
>owner
>for a Society named "Thingies, Inc.".
>The Owner of a Corporation might also want to be an Employee.
>A corporation doesn't need employees, an owner, or a mission statement,
>but
>won't be doing much without them.]]
>}}
>
>Change the following Societies to Corporations with the following
>properties
>(and if the named society does not exist, create one with the name given):
>{{
>Former Society: von Skippy Overproduction, Inc.
>Owner: Baron von Skippy
>Employees: Baron von Skippy, The Voice, Wild Card, Glotmorf, Wonko, bd,
>Squire of Dimness
>Mission Statement: von Skippy Overproduction, Inc. may also be referred to
>as vSOI.  The Owner of vSOI has the position "CEO".  If all Employees of
>vSOI other than the CEO of vSOI consent to have vSOI perform an action, it
>does so, if the action is otherwise legal [[in addition to the CEO getting
>to, as per the rules]].  If at any time there is no CEO of vSOI, the
>Employee of vSOI who has been an employee for the longest time and is not
>the Prez of MTek becomes the Owner of vSOI, if one exists.  If at any time
>the CEO of vSOI is the Prez of MTek, e loses the position CEO.
>
>Former Society: Athena's Society
>Owner: Athena
>Employees: Athena, bd, Lord Gregarian, BvS, Orc in a Spacesuit
>Mission Statement: If Athena's Society has points or BNS greater than the
>number of Employees it has, Athena's Society transfers one of that
>propoerty
>to each of its members that can have that property.  The Owner of Athena's
>Society may modify its Mission Statement.
>
>Former Society: Wealthy Bastard Enterprises
>Owner: Wonko
>Employees: Wonko
>Mission Statement: Wealthy Bastard Enterprises may also be referred to as
>WBE.  The Owner of WBE has the positions "Wealthy Bastard" and "Boss".  At
>the end of each nweek, before Corporation Mission Statement changes are
>made, if WBE has enough BNS to do so, it transfers 55 BNS to the Boss and
>11
>BNS to each non-Boss Employee.  The Boss may modify WBE's Mission
>Statement.
>
>Former Society: OrcTech
>Owner: Orc In A Spacesuit
>Employees: Orc In A Spacesuit
>Mission Statement: The Owner of OrcTech has the position "Master".  If
>there
>is no Master of OrcTech, if any Employees have the Position "Next in Line
>X", where X is an integer, the Employee with the lowest X becomes the new
>Master.  If there are no such Employees, the Employee who has been an
>Employee the longest becomes the new Master. The Master may modify the
>Mission Statement of OrcTech, except for the last two sentences.
>If Orc In A Spacesuit is an Employee and is not the Master, e becomes the
>Master.
>If Orc In A Spacesuit is not an Employee of OrcTech, and e Applies to
>OrcTech, OrcTech automatically Hires him.
>}}
>[[End corporations list]]
>
>Change the Charter of M-Tek to read the following:
>{{
>Glotmorf is the Prez of M-Tek.  M-Tek takes a legal action upon the Prez
>saying it does, or after 2 ndays of 1/2 of the members of M-Tek say it
>does
>if the Prez does not veto the action.  These actions include adding or
>removing an Entity from the Invitation List of M-Tek, ousting a member of
>M-Tek, and making a proposal.  If there is no Prez of M-Tek, the member of
>M-Tek with the highest Entropy becomes the new Prez.
>M-Tek uses the Unanimous Consent Standart Method for modifying its Charter.
>At the beginning of each nweek's voting period, if M-Tek could have
>legally
>submited a proposal but did not, the Prez must give 5 points to each other
>member of M-Tek, if possible.
>}}

This eliminates the ability of the Prez to change the M-Tek charter.  Considering I never attempted to perform the atrocities Wonko's Slaves attempted, I don't see why M-Tek should suffer.

>
>Change the Charter of The Secret Mookies to the following:
>{{
>'Lord Gregarian' is the High Mookie.
>The High Mookie can change this charter.
>Anyone can join The Secret Mookies by saying e wants to and getting the
>High
>Mookie to ok it.
>The High Mookie can kick anybody out of The Secret Mookies.
>}}
>
>Destroy all societies other than M-Tek and The Secret Mookies.
>}}
>[[end unproposed proposal]]
>
>If you have problems with this, let me know.  Also, be sure to tell me
>what
>you think of all the Standard Method stuff.
>Orc In A Spacesuit
>sips his tea.

Comments are above.  My primary comment is, kindly don't refer to something as a "mess" and offer a bigger mess as a "cleanup".  It is my opinion that there are few operational problems with societies at this time, and none that require a total rewrite to fix.

						Glotmorf


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