[spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] Ruling on CFI 1122

[Wonko <dplepage@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 10/20/02 at 2:25 AM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> I make some CFIs:
>> 
>> {{
>> Statement: If a society's charter states that it's members are required to
>> perform a certain action, then they must perform that action.
>> 
>> Defendant: Glotmorf
>> 
>> Analysis by plaintiff:
>> Read rule 578. "Public rules... are enforcible at the game level."
>> Also,
>> "A Society may have internal rules that are binding upon its Members." Or,
>> "A Society may convey certain privileges, *restrictions* or
>> responsibilities
>> to its Members".
>> So, a societal charter is enforcible on the game level, and binding
>> upon
>> the society's members. It also can covey restrictions to its Members, such
>> as requiring them to pay other players.
>> }}
> 
> Analysis by defendent:
> 
> From r578.D.2: "Membership in a Society is voluntary. An entity who is
> considered to have joined a Society is not required to remain a Member. A
> Society's public rules may regulate the method for a Member to leave the
> Society, and said method is binding upon the departing member, but it cannot
> prohibit leaving the Society altogether."
> 
> I said in my ruling, and I say now, that, while continued membership in a
> society is contingent upon acknowledging the authority of its charter, the
> authority of the society's charter is contingent upon the member agreeing to
> remain a member.  I would say that a player always has the right to leave a
> society rather than consent to its requirement.

Except that's not what the rule says. The rule says that the members must
obey the charter. Sure, you can leave at any time, but you can't wait until
after the society forces you to do something, then say that you already left
before you were forced to do it. That's a violation of "Thou shalt not screw
with time".

>> Also,
>> {{
>> Statement: The creation of the Society entitled "Wonko's Slaves" during
>> nweek 24 forced all players other than Wonko to give all eir points and BNS
>> to Wonko.
>> 
>> Defendant: Glotmorf
>> 
>> Analysis by plaintiff:
>> All players were listed as initial members. Therefore they were are
>> initially members of the society, under rule 578. The Society's public
>> rules
>> stated that all it's members had to give all their points and BNS to Wonko.
>> Rule 578 also states that "Public rules must be readable by all Players in
>> the game, and are enforcible at the game level." Therefore, all players in
>> Wonko's Slaves had to give all eir points and BNS to Wonko.
>> }}
> 
> Analysis by defendent:
> 
> From r578.G.2: "Entities in the list other than the Player declaring the
> Society must state their acceptance of membership into the Society in the same
> nweek as the declaration, or will be dropped from the list of initial Members.
> Members thus dropped are considered to have never been members of the
> Society."
> 
> Since no one consented to be a Wonko's Slave by the end of the nweek, then
> they were considered to have never been members of the society.  Which means,
> even if they were required to give their points and BNS to Wonko, they got
> them back, since they never were required to.

That's another violation of "Thou shalt not screw with time" - you can't
alter the past so that they were never in the society if they already were
in. I see two possible ways 578.G.2. could be interpreted: 1) the initial
members are put in immediately; then I succeeded in forcing everyone to be a
member; 2) the initial members are *not* put in immediately; then, since
nowhere does it say that they *are* put in later, they're never put in, and
creating a society by player action is impossible.

>> And, I suppose, just to clear this all up:
>> {{
>> Statement: Under the nweek 24 ruleset, when a society was created by a
>> player action, all players listed as initial members for that society were
>> immediately put into that society.
>> 
>> Defendant: Glotmorf
>> 
>> Analysis by plaintiff:
>> They're initial members. Therefore, by any reasonable definition of
>> 'initial', they're in the society upon it's creation. Also, note that if
>> this is judged false, then all societies created by player actions
>> immediately failed to exist, as they had no members right from the start.
>> }}
> 
> Analysis by defendent:
> 
> From r578.G.2: "Entities in the list other than the Player declaring the
> Society must state their acceptance of membership into the Society in the same
> nweek as the declaration, or will be dropped from the list of initial Members.
> Members thus dropped are considered to have never been members of the
> Society."
> 
> So if they're immediately members of the society, then at the end of the
> nweek, barring their providing their consent, they're immediately not members
> of the society.  Except, as stated, for the player making the society; if e's
> in the list, the society exists, because e's still a member.

No, rule 578 is in violation of "Thou shalt not screw with time". You can't
make it so that they never were members, because they already were members,
and the past can't be changed.

-- 
Wonko

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