Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] Here's how you create a society...

[Wonko <dplepage@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 10/3/02 at 7:39 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> Heh.  I maintain that neither of your possibilities is the case.  The
>> first
>>> certainly isn't, because a society charter and a rule are defined
>> separately,
>>> and there's nothing that says something can be both; therefore, per the
>>> default case, it can't be both.
>> 
>> The default case has, get this, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS
>> WHATSOEVER! Wow! What a surprise! Who would have thought that just because
>> a
>> rule is totally irrelevant to the situation, it wouldn't matter to the
>> situation? Gee whiz!
>> 
>> Seriously, Glotmorf, this is ridiculous. The Default case stops me from
>> changing the gamestate without a rule's permission. But I'm not even the
>> one
>> changing the gamestate - the ruleset is, by implementing my proposal. And,
>> since the ruleset is giving me permission (that's the part where it says
>> that the actions in the proposal take effect), then even if it WERE me who
>> was doing the changing, it would STILL be legal.
>> 
>>> That leaves the second.  The society rule relates to your
>> society-declaring
>>> rule, because a society, as part of its definition in the society rule,
>> has to
>>> have a charter; since the rule wasn't the charter, and since nothing
>> else was
>>> the charter, the charter didn't exist, per the society rule, which takes
>>> precedence over your rule via rule number.  Therefore, at the time you
>> were
>>> named to be the Boss of the society, the society didn't exist.
>> 
>> The rule WAS the charter. What's so hard to understand about that? So far,
>> every complaint you've made seems to hinge on the belief that WBE didn't
>> have a Charter, but you have yet to give any substantial, or, for that
>> matter, insubstantial evidence that this is the case. A rule can be a
>> charter, and there really isn't anything you can do about it.
> 
> What's so hard to understand about the rule being the charter is that the rule
> can't be the charter.  A society's charter is defined as a game document, in
> the collection of society charters.  A rule is defined, such as it is, as
> being an item that is part of the ruleset.  Nothing says a rule is a game
> document.  Nothing says a rule is in the collection of society charters.
> Nothing says a charter is in the ruleset.  To put a charter in the ruleset, or
> to put a rule in the collection of society charters, is a gamestate change
> that isn't defined in the rules, and therefore can't happen, per the default
> case.  And there's nothing that defines a rule as being the same as a charter,
> or that permits a rule to be the same as a charter.

I can think of a couple reasons why this doesn't work, but I'll stick to the
obvious ones right now:

1) A Charter is *not* defined as a game document in the collection of
society charters. A Charter *is* defined as a game document, but the fact
that it must be in a collection of charters is a restriction placed on the
Admin, not on the Charter - the Admin is required to list all charters in
the same place. And so, in fact, something does say that a rule is in the
collection of society charters - it's your own rule, in fact, when it says
that the Charters must be listed together.

2) The grouping of charters in a collection of charters isn't actually part
of the Gamestate. It's a requirement for how the Admin should display the
proposals for public view. And there's absolutely no reason why one object
cannot be displayed for public review in two places.

3) The Default case does not in any way regulate what can be done by a
proposal. It only regulates player actions. Proposal actions are not player
actions. I can perhaps see a case being made for their being Admin actions,
but nothing regulates those.

Do you want me to keep going?

No, never mind, I'm just going to CFI this.

-- 
Wonko

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