Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday morning)

[Wonko <dplepage@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 7/3/02 at 11:57 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> On 7/3/02 at 6:33 PM Wonko wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/2/02 at 10:10 PM Wonko wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 7/2/02 at 9:42 PM Wonko wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Quoth David E. Smith,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> My official ruling on "The Junior G-Men" is essentially what I
>> posted
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the -discuss list, until CFI'd otherwise. (The relevant CFI is 828,
>>>>>>>>> assigned to Rob.) So far as I'm concerned, the society never
>> existed,
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> it never had any members.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The same applies to "Team Wonko" (provisionally given Charter 830,
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> pseudo-proposal 831).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I submit that neither the G-Men [[Yes, I caught the three-way pun. I
>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>> puns.]], the Pay-bd-Men, nor Team Wonko exist:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> "G.2. Creating a Society by a Player Action
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A Player may, no more than once per nweek, in the first five ndays
>> of
>>>> an
>>>>>>>> nweek, declare a Society by stating eir intent to do so, along with
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Society's Charter.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The Charter must include a list of the Society's initial Members.
>>>>>> Players
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the list other than the Player declaring the Society must state
>> their
>>>>>>>> acceptance of membership into the Society in the same nweek as the
>>>>>>>> declaration, or will be dropped from the list of initial Members.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If, at the end of the nweek in which the Society was declared, a
>>>>>> proposal
>>>>>>>> that nweek has barred it from existing, or the Society would have no
>>>>>>>> Members, the Charter is discarded and the Society does not exist."
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Something is missing from the above quote [[from Rule 578/5 :
>>>>>> Societies]]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What's missing is the part where the society gets made.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In other words, while we can declare societies, they will never
>>>>>> actually be
>>>>>>>> created.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So none of the player-action societies ever will exist.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In that case, our votes, grid movements and gremlin-related actions
>>>> don't
>>>>>>> exist either, since all we do is declare them on the business forum.
>>>>>> Hell,
>>>>>>> nothing we do in the game exists, since we're not taking actual,
>>>>>> physical,
>>>>>>> real-world action except for declaring our actions on the public
>> forum.
>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> that context, our game actions have all the validity of the
>> calvinball
>>>>>> crap.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yer nitpicking, guy.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The difference is that the rules permit us to vote, make grid
>> movements,
>>>>>> etc. The rule quoted above only permits us to 'declare societies'. It
>>>> does
>>>>>> not equate declaring a society with creating a society - in fact, the
>>>> later
>>>>>> wording of the rule implies that declaring a society often will not
>>>> create
>>>>>> it. Creating a Society by a non-proposal action, therefore, is banned
>> by
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> default case, and by the regulation clause, as the creating of
>>>> societies is
>>>>>> definitely regulated by the above quoted rule.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tsk.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rule 578 subsection G.2 is, in case you haven't noticed, a subsection
>> of
>>>> Rule
>>>>> 578 subsection G.  Subsection G is entitled, "Creating a Society".  The
>>>> first
>>>>> paragraph of subsection G states that societies may be created by a
>>>> proposal
>>>>> or a player action.  The rest of subsection G consists of two
>>>> sub-subsections,
>>>>> one entitled, "Creating a Society with a Proposal", and the other
>>>> entitled,
>>>>> "Creating a Society by a Player Action."  It clearly indicates that the
>>>> act of
>>>>> creating a society via a player action is performed by following the
>>>> procedure
>>>>> stated within G.2.
>>>> 
>>>> But that procedure doesn't create Societies! So what if the subsection's
>>>> title says it does? It doesn't! Because nowhere in its text does it
>> create
>>>> one!
>>>> 
>>>> But alright, assume for a moment that G.2 does in fact specify a method
>> for
>>>> creating societies. Then we have an ambiguity - Where, in the course of
>>>> G.2's procedure, does this happen? When the society is declared? At the
>> end
>>>> of the nweek? At some random time in between? The statement that at the
>> end
>>>> of an nweek it might be the case that a society delcared that nweek
>> 'would
>>>> have no members' seems to indicate that in fact they are created at the
>> end
>>>> of the nweek. Therefore, the societies don't exist anyway, 'cause they
>>>> won't
>>>> happen until the end of the nweek. And if a proposal bars them from
>>>> existing, they never will happen. Guess what I'm gonna propose!
>>> 
>>> Rule 17:
>>> 
>>> "Actions occur upon reaching the appropriate Fora."
>>> 
>>> If a society is created by an action, then the society gets created when
>> the
>>> action is performed, unless the rule says otherwise.  Which it doesn't.
>>> 
>>> Yer still nitpicking, guy.
>>> 
>>> As for proposing the destruction of a society, that's not a bug, it's a
>>> feature.  That's why I said societies can only be created by actions
>> within
>>> the first five ndays, so that there's time to make a society-killing
>> proposal.
>>> Go for it.  And thanks for the reminder...
>> 
>> Here's what I interpret r578sG.2 as intending to do:
>> 
>> It allows any player, once per nweek, to declare eir intention to create a
>> society, provided it is not yet nday 6.
>> 
>> It forces the player to provide a Charter and a list of Initial members.
>> 
>> Players on the List of Initial members have until the end of the nweek to
>> affirm eir membership.
>> 
>> At the end of the nweek, if either somebody has proposed to bar the
>> society's existence, or if the culling of all members who haven't agreed to
>> be members would result in no members being left on the Initial members
>> list, then nothing happens. Otherwise, the declared society is created.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> However, under the current version, the part wherein the society is
>> actually
>> brought into existence is left out.
>> 
>> On the other hand, the section is clearly titled as a way of creating
>> societies, and thus the process must create a society somewhere in there.
>> In
>> the abscence of a time explicitly defined in the rule, the exact timing is
>> ambiguous and subject to interpretation. Game custom dictates that Dave's
>> interpretation of the rules shall be used until a CFI determines otherwise.
>> Dave's interpretation, unless I am misreading something, appears to be that
>> the societies do not yet exist. If you disagree, therefore, I suggest that
>> you CFI.
> 
> I don't have to CFI.  A CFI has already been created, which quotes Dave's
> analysis, which doesn't say anything at all about the society not existing
> because it's not the end of the nweek.  Dave's saying the society doesn't
> exist because gremlins can't be members, resulting in an empty member list.
> Which is his misinterpretation of the rule, because it only says the society
> doesn't exist if the initial member list is empty at the end of the nweek, not
> the point of creation.  The society exists because I was required to supply a
> name and a charter with an initial list of members.  If Dave's interpretation
> holds, it may not exist at the end of the nweek, but it exists for the moment.
> 
> I am reminded of a particularly bad Remo Williams book I read years ago that
> talked about a petty middle-eastern dictator who was conducting acts of
> terrorism against the US. The UN was about to order an attack on the country.
> The leader's response to this was to change the country's name to Iran.  But,
> his advisors said, there's already an Iran.  Exactly, he said; the rest of the
> world might get confused and not know who to attack.
> 
> Your arguments are spurious.  The items in Rule 578 were built in deliberately
> by me, for the sake of this one-shot attempt at self-benefit.  The arguments
> you are finding with the text are mistaken, obscure, and, as far as I can
> tell, designed to confuse the issue.
> 
> In other words, yer nitpicking, guy.

*sigh* I wish you'd stop saying that. Or at least wait until I really am
nitpicking to say it. But I'm not. I'm pointing out that the procedure for
player-action society creating specified in Rule 578 does not tell when the
society is created. If you did, in fact, build in that section for the
specific purpose of expoiting them, then, no offense intended, you didn't do
a very good job.

I would argue that the Baron's CFI ought to be ruled REFUSED - the number of
members in a society which does not exist is not germain to the game.
-- 
Wonko

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