Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday morning)

[Wonko <dplepage@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 7/3/02 at 6:33 PM Wonko wrote:
> 
>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>> 
>>> On 7/2/02 at 10:10 PM Wonko wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/2/02 at 9:42 PM Wonko wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Quoth David E. Smith,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My official ruling on "The Junior G-Men" is essentially what I posted
>>>> on
>>>>>>> the -discuss list, until CFI'd otherwise. (The relevant CFI is 828,
>>>>>>> assigned to Rob.) So far as I'm concerned, the society never existed,
>>>> as
>>>>>>> it never had any members.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The same applies to "Team Wonko" (provisionally given Charter 830,
>> and
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> pseudo-proposal 831).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I submit that neither the G-Men [[Yes, I caught the three-way pun. I
>>>> hate
>>>>>> puns.]], the Pay-bd-Men, nor Team Wonko exist:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "G.2. Creating a Society by a Player Action
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> A Player may, no more than once per nweek, in the first five ndays of
>> an
>>>>>> nweek, declare a Society by stating eir intent to do so, along with
>> the
>>>>>> Society's Charter.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Charter must include a list of the Society's initial Members.
>>>> Players
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the list other than the Player declaring the Society must state their
>>>>>> acceptance of membership into the Society in the same nweek as the
>>>>>> declaration, or will be dropped from the list of initial Members.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If, at the end of the nweek in which the Society was declared, a
>>>> proposal
>>>>>> that nweek has barred it from existing, or the Society would have no
>>>>>> Members, the Charter is discarded and the Society does not exist."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Something is missing from the above quote [[from Rule 578/5 :
>>>> Societies]]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What's missing is the part where the society gets made.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In other words, while we can declare societies, they will never
>>>> actually be
>>>>>> created.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So none of the player-action societies ever will exist.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In that case, our votes, grid movements and gremlin-related actions
>> don't
>>>>> exist either, since all we do is declare them on the business forum.
>>>> Hell,
>>>>> nothing we do in the game exists, since we're not taking actual,
>>>> physical,
>>>>> real-world action except for declaring our actions on the public forum.
>>>> In
>>>>> that context, our game actions have all the validity of the calvinball
>>>> crap.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yer nitpicking, guy.
>>>> 
>>>> The difference is that the rules permit us to vote, make grid movements,
>>>> etc. The rule quoted above only permits us to 'declare societies'. It
>> does
>>>> not equate declaring a society with creating a society - in fact, the
>> later
>>>> wording of the rule implies that declaring a society often will not
>> create
>>>> it. Creating a Society by a non-proposal action, therefore, is banned by
>>>> the
>>>> default case, and by the regulation clause, as the creating of
>> societies is
>>>> definitely regulated by the above quoted rule.
>>> 
>>> Tsk.
>>> 
>>> Rule 578 subsection G.2 is, in case you haven't noticed, a subsection of
>> Rule
>>> 578 subsection G.  Subsection G is entitled, "Creating a Society".  The
>> first
>>> paragraph of subsection G states that societies may be created by a
>> proposal
>>> or a player action.  The rest of subsection G consists of two
>> sub-subsections,
>>> one entitled, "Creating a Society with a Proposal", and the other
>> entitled,
>>> "Creating a Society by a Player Action."  It clearly indicates that the
>> act of
>>> creating a society via a player action is performed by following the
>> procedure
>>> stated within G.2.
>> 
>> But that procedure doesn't create Societies! So what if the subsection's
>> title says it does? It doesn't! Because nowhere in its text does it create
>> one!
>> 
>> But alright, assume for a moment that G.2 does in fact specify a method for
>> creating societies. Then we have an ambiguity - Where, in the course of
>> G.2's procedure, does this happen? When the society is declared? At the end
>> of the nweek? At some random time in between? The statement that at the end
>> of an nweek it might be the case that a society delcared that nweek 'would
>> have no members' seems to indicate that in fact they are created at the end
>> of the nweek. Therefore, the societies don't exist anyway, 'cause they
>> won't
>> happen until the end of the nweek. And if a proposal bars them from
>> existing, they never will happen. Guess what I'm gonna propose!
> 
> Rule 17:
> 
> "Actions occur upon reaching the appropriate Fora."
> 
> If a society is created by an action, then the society gets created when the
> action is performed, unless the rule says otherwise.  Which it doesn't.
> 
> Yer still nitpicking, guy.
> 
> As for proposing the destruction of a society, that's not a bug, it's a
> feature.  That's why I said societies can only be created by actions within
> the first five ndays, so that there's time to make a society-killing proposal.
> Go for it.  And thanks for the reminder...

Here's what I interpret r578sG.2 as intending to do:

It allows any player, once per nweek, to declare eir intention to create a
society, provided it is not yet nday 6.

It forces the player to provide a Charter and a list of Initial members.

Players on the List of Initial members have until the end of the nweek to
affirm eir membership.

At the end of the nweek, if either somebody has proposed to bar the
society's existence, or if the culling of all members who haven't agreed to
be members would result in no members being left on the Initial members
list, then nothing happens. Otherwise, the declared society is created.



However, under the current version, the part wherein the society is actually
brought into existence is left out.

On the other hand, the section is clearly titled as a way of creating
societies, and thus the process must create a society somewhere in there. In
the abscence of a time explicitly defined in the rule, the exact timing is
ambiguous and subject to interpretation. Game custom dictates that Dave's
interpretation of the rules shall be used until a CFI determines otherwise.
Dave's interpretation, unless I am misreading something, appears to be that
the societies do not yet exist. If you disagree, therefore, I suggest that
you CFI.

To whoever judges the CFI: I submit to you that the wording of the section
clearly implies that the society will be created at the end of the nweek
after the declaration is made. This is evident from the use of the word
'declaring' a society instead of 'creating', from the references to
Societies that, at the end of the nweek, 'would have' no members, (instead
of simply 'have' no members), and from the statement that if certain
conditions are not met the society is not 'destroyed', but simply 'does not
exist', suggesting that it did not exist previous to the end of the nweek.

-- 
Wonko

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