Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] The Daily Recognizer (Tuesday morning)

["Glotmorf" <glotmorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 7/3/02 at 6:33 PM Wonko wrote:

>Quoth Glotmorf,
>
>> On 7/2/02 at 10:10 PM Wonko wrote:
>>
>>> Quoth Glotmorf,
>>>
>>>> On 7/2/02 at 9:42 PM Wonko wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quoth David E. Smith,
>>>>>
>>>>>> My official ruling on "The Junior G-Men" is essentially what I posted
>>> on
>>>>>> the -discuss list, until CFI'd otherwise. (The relevant CFI is 828,
>>>>>> assigned to Rob.) So far as I'm concerned, the society never existed,
>>> as
>>>>>> it never had any members.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same applies to "Team Wonko" (provisionally given Charter 830,
>and
>>>>> its
>>>>>> pseudo-proposal 831).
>>>>>>
>>>>> I submit that neither the G-Men [[Yes, I caught the three-way pun. I
>>> hate
>>>>> puns.]], the Pay-bd-Men, nor Team Wonko exist:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "G.2. Creating a Society by a Player Action
>>>>>
>>>>> A Player may, no more than once per nweek, in the first five ndays of
>an
>>>>> nweek, declare a Society by stating eir intent to do so, along with
>the
>>>>> Society's Charter.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Charter must include a list of the Society's initial Members.
>>> Players
>>>>> in
>>>>> the list other than the Player declaring the Society must state their
>>>>> acceptance of membership into the Society in the same nweek as the
>>>>> declaration, or will be dropped from the list of initial Members.
>>>>>
>>>>> If, at the end of the nweek in which the Society was declared, a
>>> proposal
>>>>> that nweek has barred it from existing, or the Society would have no
>>>>> Members, the Charter is discarded and the Society does not exist."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Something is missing from the above quote [[from Rule 578/5 :
>>> Societies]]
>>>>>
>>>>> What's missing is the part where the society gets made.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, while we can declare societies, they will never
>>> actually be
>>>>> created.
>>>>>
>>>>> So none of the player-action societies ever will exist.
>>>>
>>>> In that case, our votes, grid movements and gremlin-related actions
>don't
>>>> exist either, since all we do is declare them on the business forum.
>>> Hell,
>>>> nothing we do in the game exists, since we're not taking actual,
>>> physical,
>>>> real-world action except for declaring our actions on the public forum.
>>> In
>>>> that context, our game actions have all the validity of the calvinball
>>> crap.
>>>>
>>>> Yer nitpicking, guy.
>>>
>>> The difference is that the rules permit us to vote, make grid movements,
>>> etc. The rule quoted above only permits us to 'declare societies'. It
>does
>>> not equate declaring a society with creating a society - in fact, the
>later
>>> wording of the rule implies that declaring a society often will not
>create
>>> it. Creating a Society by a non-proposal action, therefore, is banned by
>>> the
>>> default case, and by the regulation clause, as the creating of
>societies is
>>> definitely regulated by the above quoted rule.
>>
>> Tsk.
>>
>> Rule 578 subsection G.2 is, in case you haven't noticed, a subsection of
>Rule
>> 578 subsection G.  Subsection G is entitled, "Creating a Society".  The
>first
>> paragraph of subsection G states that societies may be created by a
>proposal
>> or a player action.  The rest of subsection G consists of two
>sub-subsections,
>> one entitled, "Creating a Society with a Proposal", and the other
>entitled,
>> "Creating a Society by a Player Action."  It clearly indicates that the
>act of
>> creating a society via a player action is performed by following the
>procedure
>> stated within G.2.
>
>But that procedure doesn't create Societies! So what if the subsection's
>title says it does? It doesn't! Because nowhere in its text does it create
>one!
>
>But alright, assume for a moment that G.2 does in fact specify a method for
>creating societies. Then we have an ambiguity - Where, in the course of
>G.2's procedure, does this happen? When the society is declared? At the end
>of the nweek? At some random time in between? The statement that at the end
>of an nweek it might be the case that a society delcared that nweek 'would
>have no members' seems to indicate that in fact they are created at the end
>of the nweek. Therefore, the societies don't exist anyway, 'cause they
>won't
>happen until the end of the nweek. And if a proposal bars them from
>existing, they never will happen. Guess what I'm gonna propose!

Rule 17:

"Actions occur upon reaching the appropriate Fora."

If a society is created by an action, then the society gets created when the action is performed, unless the rule says otherwise.  Which it doesn't.

Yer still nitpicking, guy.

As for proposing the destruction of a society, that's not a bug, it's a feature.  That's why I said societies can only be created by actions within the first five ndays, so that there's time to make a society-killing proposal.  Go for it.  And thanks for the reminder...

						Glotmorf


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