Re: [s-b] C Nomic

["Craig Daniel" <teucer@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 6:08 PM, Jay Campbell <bnomic@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I, C Nomic Player Wooble, submit the following:
>
> BEGIN TRANSACTION
>
> Assertion: The name of this game is C Nomic.
>
> I gain the Ordained property.
> I take the Ministry of Law.
> I assign Tyler's cross-nomic Consultation a number of 131 and a Priest
> of Wooble, the only Ordained player.
>
> I Anwer this Consultation as False. Proposal 485 said any *changes* the
> the gamestate would happen simultaneously, but C Nomic was not initially
> populated with Game Objects except those created by the Rules (e.g. Sock
> Corporations).
>
> END TRANSACTION
>
> Consultation 131 becomes Answered in C Nomic, and per rule 4E83, in B Nomic.

As a player (almost certainly) of C Nomic, I declare the judgement of
Consultation 131 to be CONSISTENT as there has been very little time
in C Nomic's history for any doctrine to become established. But it
likely does not exist, making this declaration moot.

Now, I'm a bit confused by rule 4E7 (and its interactions with the
above attempt) - so, as an External Force by the rules of both B and C
Nomics, I submit the following Consultations to C Nomic with the
observation that it would be seriously helpful, for reasons which will
likely be clear by the end of the list, for somebody else to become
Ordained in C Nomic.

Question: Is teucer a player in C Nomic?
Reasoning: While the precedent established here in C Nomic by
Consultation 131 establishes that players of B Nomic are not
automatically players of B Nomic, if the External Force known as Craig
Daniel became a B Nomic player under the name of teucer it seems
obvious (but may not be; Nomic is like that) that while he undertook
no actions in C Nomic at the time the effects his actions had upon B
Nomic - namely, turning him into a player - were mirrored in C Nomic.
Furthermore, ancient game tradition seems to dictate that a "unique"
player name is one not currently shared by any other player, rather
than one not ever used by anyone else for any purpose, so the fact
that teucer's name is shared with a character from the Iliad is of no
consequence; Craig Daniel's attempt to join B Nomic under that name
was successful, and he thus became a player of both nomics.

Question: Is Wooble the Minister of Law in C Nomic?
Unbeliever: Tyler, who I believe to be more correctly identified as
Ty-Guy6 unless I'm confused here.
Reasoning: Tyler has allegedly siezed all ministries in C Nomic,
making Wooble's seizure of a vacant office invalid. Having not seen
the relevant list traffic, I do not know whether Tyler's seizure of it
was any more valid, however, but I believe it was. I therefore also
believe Tyler to be the Minister of Questions.

Question: Is Tyler the Minister of Law in B Nomic?
Unbeliever: Tyler
Reasoning: If Tyler successfully seized all of the ministries in C
Nomic, then this should have been mirrored in B Nomic. Whether such
mirroring was in some way undone seems unclear to me, as I am new to
this era's gameplay, but things will likely go oddly from here.

Question: Is J the Minister of Law in B Nomic?
Unbeliever: Wooble
Reasoning: The External Force known to the world as Jay Campbell is
projected into both B and C Nomics as an outsider, and both Outsiders
are players. The Outsider controlled by Jay Campbell in C Nomic is
known in that game as Wooble, and a change to the C Nomic gamestate
may have occurred such that it now holds the Ministry of Law. The
Outsider representing the same External Force in B Nomic has a
different name, but one can reasonably assert that that Force's
successful seizure of the Ministry of Law represents a change to the
gamestate that must have automatically been mirrored in B Nomic. Thus,
Jay Campbell's B Nomic avatar, the B Nomic player known as J, is the B
Nomic Minister of Law.

Question: Is Wooble the Minister of Law in B Nomic?
Unbeliever: Wooble
Reasoning: A different interpretation of the same events as those in
the reasoning above would be to observe that the C Nomic player Wooble
became the Minister of Law - a change in the gamestate correctly
mirrored in B Nomic by the B Nomic player Wooble becoming Minister of
Law, despite the two nomics' Woobles being projections into the game
of different External Forces.

Question: Is there a Consultation 131 with the status Answered?
Unbeliever: Wooble
Reasoning: Wooble may have taken control of the Ministry of Law on
nday 9 of nweek 149, but he did not take the Ministry of Questions. I
hereby take the Ministry of Questions, because by the same reasoning
as that which justified Wooble's seizure of the Ministry of Law it,
too, is vacant. Since Wooble was not the Minister of Questions in C
Nomic, he did not have the power to assign a number to any
Consultation in C Nomic. Furthermore, were he able to do so, Wooble's
assignment of himself as a Priest to Consultation was only allegedly
legal on the grounds that he is the only ordained player of C Nomic,
but this is not true - when teucer became Ordained in B Nomic, he also
became Ordained in C Nomic.

Question: Did teucer take the Ministry of Questions in C Nomic?
Unbeliever: Wooble
Reasoning: As defined by Rule 4E7, posting any message to the public
forum that states that the player responsible takes a Game Action is
sufficient for the Game Action to occur. Such a declaration is found
in the Reasoning of a Consultation inquiring about the existence of
Consultation 131, which was posted to a public forum. When an Outsider
specifies how many times they sequentially take a Game Action, Rule
4E7 specifies that this only resolves if they are legal, but it does
not specify such a thing otherwise. Therefore, it is entirely possible
to take illegal game actions; the part that is open to debate is
whether or not such actions have any effect on the game.

Question: Is teucer the Minister of Questions in B Nomic?
Unbeliever: Wooble
Reasoning: The action of taking the Ministry of Questions was an
illegal one for teucer to take in both B Nomic and C Nomic, but if it
nonetheless succeeded in C Nomic then B Nomic must have automatically
mirrored C Nomic in accordance with Rule 4E83 by changing its
gamestate such that teucer is the Minister of Questions. Therefore, if
teucer became the Minister of Questions in C Nomic he is also the
Minister of Questions in B Nomic. However, it is quite possible that
he succeeded in taking a Game Action (as defined by Rule 4E7) in C
Nomic of taking the Ministry of Questions but that the illegality of
this action means it failed to have an effect, rather than failing to
be taken. So this Consultation is False if illegal actions cannot be
taken at all, or if they can be taken but are without result; it is
True if the legality of Game Actions is irrelevant to their ability to
occur successfully.

 - teucer
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