Craig on 2 May 2003 21:58:01 -0000

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RE: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning.

>> >> >> >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to
>> up
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my
>> into
>> >> >> >> 1000
>> >> >> >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an
>> >> >> >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas
>> >> >> >how B can fix its ruleset.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the
>> >> >> >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist
>> exactly
>> >> >> >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000
>> >> >> >How do we reconcile this?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I
>> that
>> >> >> protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if
>> >> sees
>> >> >> this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins.
>> >>
>> >> >I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and
>> >> >interact.
>> >>
>> >> I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo.
>> >First, these actions of your's haven't been legal within Thermo.  Rule
>> hadn't yet been
>> >passed when you started these things.
>> Rule 0.5 would have explicitly granted me these powers. Instead, they
>> implicitly granted by rule 4.4, as there are not any restrictions on
>> entering the market, even though there is no rule specifically saying
>> there is one.

>You're forgetting Thermo.Rule::6.5, which states "No changes to the
gamestate may occur except
>as defined in the ruleset".  So what rule, specifically, prior to the
passage of 0.5, allowed
>you to arbitrarily destroy or remove Thermo::Coins from the gamestate of
Thermo?  And the same
>question is actually still present after the passage of 0.5, since it only
referrs to "players"
>not eir possessions, and the concept of "entering the nomic market", does
not in any way mean
>that the gamestate of Thermo has changed, merely that the conditions within
the Market.Rules for
>entering the market are doable.

The gamestate is a rather vague concept.

>> I therefore CFJ on the following: There are currently no
>> restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market.

>Real life is getting in the way the last day or so, and I'm trying to catch
up.  I'll deal with
>this explicitly within Thermo as soon as I can, but I'll pont out that with
the passage of
>Thermo.Rule::0.5, this *should* be trivially TRUE.  Again, my point is that
the issue is not
>regarding "players" but rather Coins.

Ah, but 0.5 is not yet passed.

>>Third, and I think that this is the most fundamental of these details,
There is no hazard *yet*

>> >to B Nomic's Bank and BNS;  There are effectively four "Object Types" in
>> question: (1)
>> >Thermo::Coins, (2) Market::Coins,  (3) B-Nomic::BNS,  (4) Market::BNS.
>> I agree that there is no hazard *yet*. The potential hazard, however, is
>> enough for me to pull back out.

>Acknowledged, especially as I don't know the ruleset of B Nomic, they may
potentially have
>issues that Thermo doesn't.

I do not know them either, but I understand that there is a perceived
potential threat.

>> >Craig's actions are as follows:
>> >1) Entering the market, without *any* ruleset powers from Thermo.
>> Rule 4.4

>Yes, you as a player.  I'll even concede that the "thin air" in 2 and 4 is
a COPY(made in
>Market::Coins) of the Thermo::Coins your Thermo::Player self had, but in
order to "remove" your
>Thermo::Coins from Thermo, you would need a Thermo.Rule that allowed you to
change the gamestate
>in such a manner, there is no such rule.

>> >2) Conjuring 2 Market::Coins out of thin air
>> They were the same two Coins that I had in Thermo.

>No, because the gamestate of Thermo was unchanged.  At best they were

>> >4) Conjuring an additional Market:Coin out of thin air
>> Which I had in Thermo.

>Nope, see above.

>> >6) Converting his 3,000 Market:BNS into 3 Market::Coins
>> And again.

>Yup.  But upon returning to Thermo, even if you had skipped step 6, you
would have found your
>same 3 Thermo::Coins sitting in your possession, and no BNS.

>> >Thus, the concerns are really rather moot as Craig never had any
>> B-Nomic:BNS, with which to
>> >effect the B-NomicBank.  Also, Craig's actions, which were intended to
>> safe-guard his Coins,
>> >against a potentialls "dangerous" proposal within Thermo, were rather
>> silly, because they had no
>> >effect on his Thermo:Coins.
>> Yes, they did; the Thermo::Coins are the same objects as the
>> the difference being in how they were being used. There was no net
>> however.

>You have not yet stated how that can POSSIBLY be, as these are entirely
different games.  Any
>object within one is NOT the same as another object in a different game,
unless BOTH games
>establish a set of transformations that allows such to occur.  Thermo
clearly does not have such
>a set of Transformations, nor does Nomic Market, at least at this point.

The whole POINT of internomic trading is that they were the same objects.
Consequently, some further CFJs.

1. Craig successfully entered the Market prior to the submission of this
2. Craig successfully aquired three thousand BNS within the Market prior to
the submission of this CFJ.
3. For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the
creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of the
4. For some period of time prior to the submission of this CFJ but after the
creation of the Nomic Market, Craig had zero Coins for the purposes of
5. Craig currently has three Coins.

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