Doctor Ducker on 2 May 2003 21:15:01 -0000

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Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Thermo] RE: [Nomicmarket] Nomic Market beginning.

Craig wrote:

> >> >> >> OK, now that that's there (and while waiting for my message to show
> up
> >> >> >> in
> >> >> >> Thermo), I come to the market and convert all but one of my Coins
> into
> >> >> >> 1000
> >> >> >> BNS each. I'd better protect these puppies while I can.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >This post has been sent to both the market and B Nomic, as both an
> >> >> >example of the hazards of free trade, and a request for any ideas of
> >> >> >how B can fix its ruleset.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The problem we have now is that if we legally recognize the Market,
> >> >> >we're violating our Bank rule - it stipulates that there exist
> exactly
> >> >> >5,000,000 BNS, but the Market stipulates that Craig's got 1000 more.
> >> >> >How do we reconcile this?
> >> >>
> >> >> 2000, actually, and I've since gotten another 1000. However, I think
> that
> >> >> protecting the stability of interaction is essential. Thus, if anyone
> >> sees
> >> >> this as dangerous, I will turn them back into three Coins.
> >>
> >> >I think it needs to be rewritten to have the banks in B Nomic and thermo
> >> >interact.
> >>
> >> I hereby turn my 3000 BNS into 3 Coins and bring them into Thermo.
> >First, these actions of your's haven't been legal within Thermo.  Rule 0.5
> hadn't yet been
> >passed when you started these things.
> Rule 0.5 would have explicitly granted me these powers. Instead, they were
> implicitly granted by rule 4.4, as there are not any restrictions on
> entering the market, even though there is no rule specifically saying that
> there is one.

You're forgetting Thermo.Rule::6.5, which states "No changes to the gamestate may occur except
as defined in the ruleset".  So what rule, specifically, prior to the passage of 0.5, allowed
you to arbitrarily destroy or remove Thermo::Coins from the gamestate of Thermo?  And the same
question is actually still present after the passage of 0.5, since it only referrs to "players"
not eir possessions, and the concept of "entering the nomic market", does not in any way mean
that the gamestate of Thermo has changed, merely that the conditions within the Market.Rules for
entering the market are doable.

> I therefore CFJ on the following: There are currently no
> restrictions in the rules on players entering the Nomic Market.

Real life is getting in the way the last day or so, and I'm trying to catch up.  I'll deal with
this explicitly within Thermo as soon as I can, but I'll pont out that with the passage of
Thermo.Rule::0.5, this *should* be trivially TRUE.  Again, my point is that the issue is not
regarding "players" but rather Coins.

>Third, and I think that this is the most fundamental of these details, There is no hazard *yet*

> >to B Nomic's Bank and BNS;  There are effectively four "Object Types" in
> question: (1)
> >Thermo::Coins, (2) Market::Coins,  (3) B-Nomic::BNS,  (4) Market::BNS.
> I agree that there is no hazard *yet*. The potential hazard, however, is
> enough for me to pull back out.

Acknowledged, especially as I don't know the ruleset of B Nomic, they may potentially have
issues that Thermo doesn't.

> >Craig's actions are as follows:
> >1) Entering the market, without *any* ruleset powers from Thermo.
> Rule 4.4

Yes, you as a player.  I'll even concede that the "thin air" in 2 and 4 is a COPY(made in
Market::Coins) of the Thermo::Coins your Thermo::Player self had, but in order to "remove" your
Thermo::Coins from Thermo, you would need a Thermo.Rule that allowed you to change the gamestate
in such a manner, there is no such rule.

> >2) Conjuring 2 Market::Coins out of thin air
> They were the same two Coins that I had in Thermo.

No, because the gamestate of Thermo was unchanged.  At best they were copies.

> >3) Converting these Coins into 2,000 Market::BNS
> As the market rules explicitly empowered me to do.

Note I made no references as to any invalid actions here.

> >4) Conjuring an additional Market:Coin out of thin air
> Which I had in Thermo.

Nope, see above.

> >5) Converting that Coin into 1,000 Market::BNS
> Again, the market ruleset lets me do this.


> >6) Converting his 3,000 Market:BNS into 3 Market::Coins
> And again.

Yup.  But upon returning to Thermo, even if you had skipped step 6, you would have found your
same 3 Thermo::Coins sitting in your possession, and no BNS.

> >Thus, the concerns are really rather moot as Craig never had any
> B-Nomic:BNS, with which to
> >effect the B-NomicBank.  Also, Craig's actions, which were intended to
> safe-guard his Coins,
> >against a potentialls "dangerous" proposal within Thermo, were rather
> silly, because they had no
> >effect on his Thermo:Coins.
> Yes, they did; the Thermo::Coins are the same objects as the Market::Coins,
> the difference being in how they were being used. There was no net change,
> however.

You have not yet stated how that can POSSIBLY be, as these are entirely different games.  Any
object within one is NOT the same as another object in a different game, unless BOTH games
establish a set of transformations that allows such to occur.  Thermo clearly does not have such
a set of Transformations, nor does Nomic Market, at least at this point.

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