Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] Veni, Vidi, Vacancy

[SkArcher <SkArcher@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

05/05/2003 02:51:26, "Baron von Skippy" <baronvonskippy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>>I create a CFI:
>>{{
>>A player who is a Toad or a Penguin may not move emself by performing a 
>>Force
>>Lift on emself.
>>Analysis: The section defining Force Lifting states that the player is 
>>moved.
>>The rule regarding Toads states that a Toaded player may not move of eir 
>>own
>>free will. Therefore, e may not use a Force Lift on emself.
>>Defendant: Baron von Skippy
>>}}
>>
>-Meh. Just as I was having fun, too. Fine, then, allow me to give my brief:
>
>Rule 301 says that a player who is a Toad (or Penguin) may not move of their 
>own free will.
>
>Rule 815 (The Force) states that players may spend 8 Force to move a 
>carryable object not in the possesion of another player to a legal square up 
>to three spaces from that player.
>
>Rule 301 defers to all rules which contradict it.
>
>Given that 301 and 815 clearly contradict each other, that means that 815 
>takes precedence over 301 and players may move themselves via the Force.
>
>In addition, players using the Force to lift themselves are not moving of 
>their own free will, which is banned by the definition of Toads, but are 
>moving of their Force powers, according to the definition of "of" on 
>www.m-w.com ("used as a function word to indicate the cause, motive, or 
>reason <died /of/ flu>").
>
>Therefore, this CFI is clearly FALSE.
>
>If that doesn't convince the to-be-assigned judge, I can always try 
>bribery.-
>
>[[BvS]]

And likewise, my brief on the subject:

1> Rule 301/38 states, in section F1, that toads may not move of eir own free will. It also 
states that a toad is a carryable MO.

2> Rule 815/4 states, in section B5, that using force lifting on a carryable MO moves it.

3> Because 815/4 states that the carryable MO (in this instance a player) moves in a different 
manner than proscribed in Rule 301/38 section B2 it falls into the purview of the sentence which 
states. 
{Unless otherwise prescribed by the rules, Players may only move from eir current location to any 
of the units surrounding eir current location.}
Note that, unlike the Baron claims above, rule 301 does NOT defer to any other rule which 
contradicts it, only ONE limitation of the rule is defered to other rules.

4> This selection of rules therefore states that toads are forbidden to move of eir free will 
(301/38 F1) and that the movement of MOs being force lifted differs from the movement of players 
(815/4 B5). When a player is an MO, movement of that MO must constitute moving the player.

5> The statement on which BvS is basing his assertions is that when a player in toad guise is 
being force lifted, it is the force that does the movement, not the player. This can be shown to 
be False.

Firstly, it is false, because as stated in rule 815/4 B5 
{When a player Force Lifts an object, that object is moved from its location to the targeted 
square.}
Thus it is clearly shown that force lifting is a rules granted ability of a player to do as 
described in rule 815/4 B5 - it is stated that the player takes the action of force lifting the 
object. It is NOT a mystical force that does things as defined in the rules. This is Nomic, not 
star wars.

As such the player would move, in such a situation, of eir own free will, which is forbidden to 
toads. 


One more thing I wish to address, which was posted by Glotmorf:
Begin included text
------------------------
> Were there to exist a CFI regarding this issue, and were I assigned judge of it, I might cite 
> the difference  between the noun and active verb form of "move", used in the rules to indicate
> the player-relevant action of  relocating to another grid square in a nweek-delimited manner,
> and the more passive verb form of "move" having to do with bodies being set in motion, such as
> things that are flung.  A thing that has been  flung by a player at someone is considered to be
> moving from the flung-from square to the flung-at square.   And since toads can be flung, they
> can, at least in that respect, move.
------------------------
End included Text

Glotmorfs' post with regards to the grammatical nature of the rules and words has no effect upon 
the claim;  while a toad may be flung, or indeed moved in other ways by the actions of other 
players, the toad may not fling itself, nor may it move in any way by its own sole violition. In 
short, it isn't the type of moving that is at issue (and anyway, all movement in B Nomic is 
defined by the rules), it is the matter of intent, and by intending to move (even if via the 
players force powers, rather than in any other way), the player cannot move, regardless of what 
grammatical form the word move is taken in, all of them are prohibitted if they are taken of free 
will.



In short, the issue is one of terminology - just because it is called the force, that doesn't 
mean it is a mystical all encompassing energy field, mmm'kay?

The rules definitions are what counts.


SkArcher

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do 
the job.
Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001), The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy 


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