Re: [s-d] [s-b] Fire sale!

[Justin Ahmann <quesmarktion@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

An External Force is anything which exists independently of the game. That is, it would still exist if the game stopped existing, and would still exist if the game had never started existing. 
An Outsider is a Game Object representing the projection into the Game of an External Force.

A Player is an Outsider who consents to be governed by the rules, fulfills all requirements for continued playerhood specified by the rules, and has become a Player in a manner specified by the rules that were in effect at the time e became a Player. 
Any Human External Force that is not already a Player may request to join the game by posting a message to a Public Forum containing a request to become a Player and a uniquely identifying name that e wishes to be known by. 
As a Game Action, any player may Ratify or Reject such a request within 10 rdays of its being made. The External Force making the request becomes a Player as soon as all of the following are true:

An Outsider is a projection into the game of an External Force.

A Player is an Outsider.

A new Player is an External Force.

Thus, a new Player must be both a projection into the game and a thing that exists independently of the game.

When pikhq joined the game, an Outsider was an External Force, but not a projection.  Thus, "Josiah Worcester" was
an External Force
an Outsider
a Game Object
a Player

Proposal 211 made it impossible to modify Game Objects unless explicitly allowed by the rules.  Proposal 213 then redefined "Outsider" to the present definition.  Thus, as "Josiah Worcester" was a Game Object, one of two things must have happened:

1) "Josiah Worcester" remained an Outsider, but, as the definition of Outsider changed, "Josiah Worcester" also changed.  "Josiah Worcester" became, in game context, a projection of an External Force.  Luckily, since the rules only regulate Outsiders as Game Objects, the human "Josiah Worcester" has not been inconvenienced by this.  "Josiah Worcester" fell into the paradox above, because he was a projection into the game, and, at the same time, a human independent of the game.

2) "Josiah Worcester" did not become a projection; instead, he ceased to be an Outsider, as he no longer fit the definition of an Outsider.  As he was no longer an Outsider, he was no longer a Player.  The same goes for everybody else playing at the time.  However, due to Wooble's Refresh Proposal in nweek 135, there existed a Player named pikhq (as well as all other assumed Players at the time).  Therefore, there exist a host of Players, that, as Outsiders, are projections of External Forces, but nothing defines who or what these External Forces are.  The Players who have joined since the Emergency of nweek 135 run into the paradox above--they must simultaneously be part of the game and not part of it.

This doesn't really lend much to the problem of what happens to pikhq's Rapier.  All it establishes is that there is a big paradox with the "Fourth Era Pioneers", and maybe with the non-"Fourth Era Pioneers".

(Maybe somebody can figure out how to paradox-win with this.  If so, I would like to achieve it.  There's no real reason to let me, though.)

Codae


----- Original Message ----
From: Jamie Dallaire <bad.leprechaun@xxxxxxxxx>
To: discussion list for B Nomic <spoon-discuss@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:38:59 PM
Subject: Re: [s-d] [s-b] Fire sale!

I think pikhq still is a Game Object. (I will nuance this sentence lower...)

- pikhq is an External Force, or at least the human who types at a keyboard
and signs his messages pikhq is an External Force. That is, Josiah
Worchester (whether or not that is his real name...) is an External Force.
No doubt about that.
- an Outsider is a Game Object that represents the projection of an External
Force into the game. Nothing indicates which External Forces are projected
into the game as Outsiders and which are not. For all we know, my dog, my
baby cousin, the "y" key on my keyboard, and my copy of Gran Turismo 2 for
Playstation may be projected into the game as Outsiders (which are Game
Objects).
  - What is clear is that all current Players are Outsiders, since only
Outsiders may become Players. One could attempt to argue that the rules
never explicitly projected our human selves into the game, but I would
counter that with 2 arguments
      - 1) the logical one: at the time when most of us (including pikhq)
became players, the rule specifying that all actions that change the
gamestate must be explicitly permitted by the rules was not in place.
      - 2) the utilitarian one: if we were never projected into the game, we
are not players, and we are not playing. all this time we have just been
sending meaningless words to a couple mailing lists.
  - If we current players are all Outsiders, then by the same logic,
pikhq/Josiah was both a player and an Outsider immediately before
forfeiting.
- When pikhq forfeit, that rule about explicitly specified changes WAS in
place, meaning the only gamestate changes that happened when pikhq forfeit
was that pikhq ceased to be a player. The Outsider (a game object) that
represents the projection of Josiah Worchester could not cease to be an
Outsider because it was not allowed by the Rules. (Whether any players who
forfeit before this rule came into effect also ceased to be outsiders is
beyond the point)

Thus, unless I screwed up somewhere (please tell me), I think we can be
quite confident that the rapier in question still exists. Its owner is "the
Outsider that represents the projection of Josiah Worchester into the game
of B Nomic". This seems to be true whether you take the philosophical
position that one particular quark out of the many that make up my bedsheet
is also projected as an Outsider (in which case that quark's projection
could possibly own a device) or that that quark is not projected (in which
case you might think that Josiah Worchester is "trapped" inside the game, or
at least that his projection is).

Billy Pilgrim

On Jan 10, 2008 8:15 PM, Justin Ahmann <quesmarktion@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> But is pikhq still a Game Object?
>
> Codae
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jamie Dallaire <bad.leprechaun@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: discussion list for B Nomic <spoon-discuss@xxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:14:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [s-d] [s-b] Fire sale!
>
> Hmmm. That would make sense.
>
> On Jan 10, 2008 8:08 PM, ihope <ihope127@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 10, 2008 7:57 PM, Aaron Coquet <farfromunique@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > Is there anywhere in the rules that says something to the effect of,
> > "When a
> > > player quits the game, they are no longer a COO, DOO or other type of
> > > Something-Owning object"?
> >
> > I doubt it. The only applicable rule seems to be:
> >
> > 'A "device owner object", or DOO, is a type of game object that may
> > own devices. All players are device owner objects.'
> >
> > Therefore, whether or not something other than a Player is a DOO is
> > undefined, unless defined elsewhere. I'd say, then, that pikhq is
> > still a DOO despite not still being a Player.
> >
> > --Ivan Hope CXXVII
> > _______________________________________________
> > spoon-discuss mailing list
> > spoon-discuss@xxxxxxxxx
> > http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/spoon-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> spoon-discuss mailing list
> spoon-discuss@xxxxxxxxx
> http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/spoon-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> spoon-discuss mailing list
> spoon-discuss@xxxxxxxxx
> http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/spoon-discuss
>
_______________________________________________
spoon-discuss mailing list
spoon-discuss@xxxxxxxxx
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/spoon-discuss
_______________________________________________
spoon-discuss mailing list
spoon-discuss@xxxxxxxxx
http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/spoon-discuss