Re: [spoon-discuss] Re: [Spoon-business] for real this time

["Orc In A Spacesuit" <orcinaspacesuit@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

> From: "Glotmorf" <glotmorf@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> On 10/25/02 at 5:56 PM Orc In A Spacesuit wrote:
> >Ok, NOW it's on the right forum.  With 4 minutes left.
> With significantly more than 4 minutes to do so, I comment on this.  I have 
> several problems with it.

Arrg. After seeing all you wrote, I am suprized.  I thought this was pretty 
plain.

> >I propose the following:
> >{{__Societies and Corporations__
> >
> >Change the rule __Societies__ to read the following:
> >{{
> >
> >A. Definition
> >In this rule, Players, and Societies whose members are all Independent
> >Entities, are Independent Entities.
> >In this rule, Gremlins, and Societies whose members are not all
> >Independent
> >Entities.
> >In this rule, Independent Entities and Dependent Entities are Entities.
> >In this rule, all Dimensions are Properties, and Points and Entropy, if
> >they
> >are not Dimensions, are Properties too.
> >A Society is a group of one or more entities who are Members of the
> >Society.
> >A Corporation is a class (or kind) of Society.
> >
> >B. Society Charter
> >A Society must have a Charter, which dictates what actions it takes and
> >when
> >it takes them.  A Society takes legal actions as dictated in its Charter.
>
> Given that you then define "society actions", I interpret this as meaning a 
> society's charter states what actions out of those specified in subsection 
> C the society can take.  Which means it can't take any other actions, such 
> as maintaining a list of private rules as INH does.

No, I don't define "Society Actions".  I simply say some of the actions it 
may take.  Permissability of the Unprohibited and all that.

> As for "when it takes them", this implies a time, but doesn't imply any 
> control of the circumstances under which an action can be taken.

Yes it does.  "This Society Accepts an Entity when any Member States it 
does".  I think that's pretty simple.  I didn't make specifics to allow for 
flexibility.  And as for private rules, a charter can say "If any Member 
does not follow the Codes Of Conduct, e is Ousted", and "If all members of 
this Society agree upon a change to the Codes of Conduct, it is changed", 
and some other basics.

> For example, modifying its charter is an action a society can take.  Doing 
> it within the first five days is when it can take it.  Deciding what 
> changes to make isn't defined anywhere as an action.  Therefore there's no 
> way to say a society changes its charter if the leader says so, or if a 
> majority agrees.

It doesn't decide.  It just does as its Charter specifies.

> The point is, a society is only a pseudo-entity consisting of entities that 
> are members.  It's not only an inanimate object, it's a nonexistent 
> inanimate object.  Therefore, when you talk about a society taking actions, 
> it's like saying a rock is permitted to enter a room: with nothing 
> impelling it, it ain't gonna move.  And with nothing impelling a society, 
> it ain't gonna act.  And you're not providing for impelling a society.  
> There have to be mechanisms that permit the entities that make up the 
> society to make the society do something.

The charters state conditions, and when the conditions are met, it takes the 
actions.

> >C. Society Actions
> >
> >C.1 General Actions
> >A Society may modify its Charter during the first 5 ndays of an nweek, if
> >all of its members are Independent Entities.  Such changes do not take
> >effect until the end of the nweek.
>
> See above.  Nothing says a society can specify how it comes up with a 
> charter change.

See above.  It changes as its Charter specifies.

> >A Society may Accept any Entity that is Requesting Admittance to the
> >Society.  When a Society Accepts an entity, that Entity becomes a Member
> >of
> >that Society.
>
> Nothing says a society can specify the criteria for accepting an entity.

Except its Charter.

> >A Society may Oust any of its Members.  Members who are Ousted cease to 
> be
> >Member of that Society.
>
> Nothing says a society can specify the criteria for ousting members.

Except its Charter.

> >Any Entity that has Points or BNS may transfer any positive amount of eir
> >Points or BNS to any other Entity that has Points or BNS, respectively.
>
> This is covered in Rule 21.

Well I'm re-covering it to make it explict, and protect against Less is More 
or other accidental edits.

> >Players may transfer a positive amount of eir Bandwidth to any Society
> >that
> >is not a Corporation.
>
> Why only players?  Why not member societies?

Good point.  Shouldn't be a sticking one, as there is no such thing as a 
member society now, but yeah, I'll fix that.  Although we could leave it, as 
someone wanting to donate Bandwidth may want it to stay with the society.  
People, voice your opinions in the next 19 hours and 35 minutes.

> >A Society may State things.  [[Just to be sure]]
>
> And this means what, exactly?

I know it sounds stupid, but its to make sure that if, say, a Society does 
something on its Members stating something; if another Society is a member, 
it can still participate.  I think this should be a 'duh' thing, but I don't 
like bugs, so I try to keep this explicit.

> >Accepting an Entity, Ousting a Member, changing its Charter, and making
> >Statements are Managerial Actions.  [[To shorten Charters]]
>
> What are managerial actions?  I don't see any other reference to them in 
> this proposed rule.

They don't mean anything.  It lets people say "managerial actions" rather 
than listing all the individual actions.  This is a partial remanant of 
Standard Actions.

> >C.2 Proposals
> >Beginning in the nweek after the one in which they are created, Societies
> >that are not Corporations may submit proposals just as Players can; these
> >are referred to as Society Proposals, or Club Props. If the properties of
> >a
> >a Society would be changed by the rules as a result of voting, and the
> >Society does not have that property, all members of that society get that
> >change divided by the number of members in that society with that
> >property,
> >with the remainder assigned to randomly among those members.  If the
> >previous sentence would create an infinite loop, in the opinion of the
> >administrator, then the change is assigned as the Administrator sees fit,
> >or
> >not at all.  Submitting a proposal does require the society to have and
> >pay
> >bandwidth, just as it does with players.
>
> Wonko dropped the "Corporations can't propose" restriction.  Why can't you?

None of the Corporations that would exist after this prop passes would 
propose anyway.  And does Microsoft propose?  No, it convinces legistators 
(the players) to do so.  This is for simplicity.  If you want to propose, 
create a seperate society, maybe a member or leader of the corporation.

> Also, "properties" aren't game-recognized things, especially for players.  
> Players have dimensions.

See the definitions at the top.  Dimensions are Properties in this rule.

> And, again, nothing says a society can have a method for how club props get 
> made.

And, again, Societies can take Actions, and how it take those actions is 
specified in the charter.

> >When a Society submits a Proposal, it must state a Member of the Society
> >who
> >can propose (if e were freed of bandwidth restrictions) to be the
> >Presenter
> >of the Proposal.  If a property is referenced in a rule that the Society
> >does not have but the Presenter does, the rule looks to the Presenter's
> >property.  Such properties may result in restrictions on the proposal, as
> >defined by the rules (This is for BAC and such.  I'm pretty much making 
> it
> >such that one person actually delivers the prop).
>
> Nothing says a society can have a method for choosing a Presenter.

Yet again, it chooses as the Charter says.


> >A Society may not make proposals if it has less than 3 Members who are 
> not
> >On Leave, or the number of its Members is greater than one half the 
> number
> >of Off Leave Players in the game.
> >
> >A Society may also revise or rescind eir current proposals, when it is 
> not
> >a
> >voting period.
>
> Nothing says a society can have a method for changing its proposals.

AS ITS CHARTER SAYS!

> >C.3 Incorporation
> >Any Society may Incorporate if it has not submitted any proposals duing
> >the
> >current nweek.  When a Society Incorporates, it becomes a Corporation in
> >addition to being a Society.  Corporations do not have Bandwidth; any
> >Bandwidth the Society had at Incorporation is lost.
>
> If you're going to insist that players give bandwidth to the society, you 
> should at least let them get it back.

Bandwidth is not a freely tradeable commodity.  And remembering who gave 
what and who get what fraction of what's left is too messy.  If a society is 
going to be destroyed through prop, it happens at the end of the nweek when 
it has 0 bandwidth anyway, and if it gets destroyed otherwise, the players 
should see it coming.

> >C.4 Positions
> >Any Society may confer Positions onto its Members, and may witdraw
> >positions
> >it confers.  Such Positions must have the form "X of Y", where X is a
> >string
> >and Y is the name of the Society.  For brevity, when the Society in
> >question
> >has been made clear, just X may be used instead of X of Y.  Positions are
> >not names or titles.  If any Member of a Society stops being a Member of
> >it,
> >e loses all Positions given by that Society.
>
> Nothing allows societies to have methods for determining who receives a 
> position, what positions are to be created, or even what said positions 
> entail.

It does as its charter says.

> >D. Leaving a Society
> >Membership in Societies is voluntary.  Any Member of a Society may at any
> >time Leave the Society, ceasing to be a Member of the Society.
> >
> >If a Society ever has no Members, it ceases to exist, unless another Rule
> >or
> >the Society's Charter states otherwise.  If a Society has no Members for
> >the
> >entirety of an nweek, is ceases to exist unless another rule states
> >otherwise.  (If it didn't exist for part of the nweek, then it didn't 
> have
> >members at that time.  Just clarification.)
>
> A charter defers to game rules, and that's a valuable feature.  A charter 
> alone should not be able to keep a society existing.

A charter doesn't need to defer to game rules; it already does by 
definition.  All a charter does it define when the society takes actions, 
and allow it to exist a bit longer as stated here.  It cant do anything 
else.

> >When a Society ceases to exist (indcluding if it is destroyed), unless 
> its
> >Charter, a passed proposal, or a rule state otherwise, any proposals
> >created
> >by the society that have not been voted on are rescinded.
> >
> >If a Member of a Society ceases to exist in the scope of this game, that
> >Member is no longer a Member of that Society [[duh]].
>
> Poorly phrased.  Being a member of a society is to exist in the scope of 
> this game.  A member of a society would have to cease being that member of 
> that society before e could cease to exist in the scope of this game.  So 
> the above sentence is either meaningless or self-defeating.

No, being a member is not to exist, but a quality of that existance.

> >F. Resources
> >All Societies have Entropy.
> >All Societies that are not Coroporations have Bandwidth.
> >All Corporations have Points and BNS.
> >The default values of these 4 properties is 0.
>
> "Properties" are not defined at the game level.  Defining them at the 
> society level doesn't change that fact.

They are Dimensions outside this rule.  See above.

> >At the beginning of each nweek, the Bandwidth of each Society is set to 
> 0.
> >
> >If a Society has Entropy greater than or equal to the number of Members 
> it
> >has that can have Entropy, one Entropy it has is transferred to each of
> >its
> >Members that can have Entropy.
> >Any Entity that has Points and/or BNS may transfer any positive amount of
> >those to any other Entity that has the tranferred property.
> >Any Entity that has Bandwidth may transfer any positive amount of it to
> >any
> >Society.
>
> Points and BNS are objects, not properties.

Yet again, see how the main definitions were changed.

> >If any change to a Property would be assigned to a Society that does not
> >have that Property, all changes are instead divided as evenly as possible
> >among its members that have that Property, with the remainder assigned
> >randomly among them, or as the Adminstrator sees fit among them.
>
> Players don't have properties.

Yet again, see how the main definitions were changed.

> >G. Creating a Society
> >
> >Once per nweek, a Player may create a Society, giving it a uniquely
> >identifying name.  Unless e specifies otherwise, the creator of a society
> >becomes a member of that Society upon its creation.
> >
> >[[If you want to invite some people into the society at the beginning,
> >just
> >have the Charter specify it'll automatically let those people join, and
> >maybe include a time limit when that part is taken out.]]
> >
> >[[You can still create via proposal.  Societies are a part of the game, 
> so
> >props can affect them.]]
>
> Yes, props can affect them, but this removes any control the ruleset has 
> over how proposals can create societies.  This means anyone can propose a 
> society that internally makes about as much sense as It.

Yes, but people could do that anyway, really.  People still have to vote 
yes; the only reason people voted yes for It was that they thought It was 
harmless and no idjits would try stupid crap with it.

> >}}
> >
> >Repeal the rule __Corporations__ (1149/0)
> >
> >Change the properties of the following Societies to the following, and if
> >the named society does not exist, create one with the name given:
> >{{
> >Society: von Skippy Overproduction, Inc.
> >Members: Baron von Skippy, Wild Card, Glotmorf, Wonko, bd, Squire of
> >Dimness, Athena
> >Charter: von Skippy Overproduction, Inc. may also be referred to as vSOI.
> >One and only one Member may have the Position "CEO".   If the CEO, or all
> >Members of vSOI other than the CEO, consent to have vSOI perform a
> >Managerial Action other than modify its Charter, it does so.  If all
> >members
> >of vSOI consent to have vSOI change its Charter, it does so.  If at any
> >time
> >there is no CEO, the Member who has been a Member for the longest time
> >gains
> >the Position CEO, if one exists.  At the end of each nweek vSOI tranfers
> >one
> >half of its points, rounded down, to vSET.  Then, vSOI tranfers one V/M
> >points, rounded down, to each of its Members that can have points, where 
> V
> >is the number of points vSOI has and M is the number of Member is vSOI.
>
> Nothing but the second sentence in the above qualifies as a "society 
> action", per your subsection C.

There is no such thing as a "Society Action".  That's just the name of 
Subsection C.  If I define a secition somewhere with the name "player 
actions", does that negate the rest of the ruleset as to what player can do? 
 No, it's just a name that has no effect on the game.

> Plus, you didn't say vSOI was a corporation, and your rule says it has to 
> be to have points.  Assuming it can possess points at all.

Oh, my bad, I didn't fix that when I made that change.

> >Society: Athena's Society
> >Members: Athena, bd, Lord Gregarian, BvS, Orc in a Spacesuit
> >Charter: If Athena's Society has points or BNS greater than the number of
> >Members it has, Athena's Society transfers one of that propoerty to each
> >of
> >its Members that can have that property.  Athena's Society performs
> >Managerial Actions or changes its Charter when Athena says it does.
>
> Nothing in the above qualifies as a society action per your subsection C.

See my same response 30 other times.

> >Society: Wealthy Bastard Enterprises
> >Members: Wonko and Glotmorf
> >Charter: Wealthy Bastard Enterprises may also be referred to as WBE.  One
> >and only one Member may have the Position "The Usurper".  One and only 
> one
> >Member of may have the Position "The Deposed King".  If a Member loses 
> the
> >Position of The Usurper, e gains the Position The Deposed King.  IF any
> >Member of WBE that has Position given to em by WBE states that WBE
> >performs
> >a Managerial Action, WBE does so.  At the end of each nweek, before
> >Charter
> >changes take effect, if WBE has enough BNS to do all of the following, it
> >transfers 45 BNS to The Usurper if there is one, 25 BNS to The Deposed
> >King
> >if there is one, and 11 BNS to each other Member if there are any.  If
> >there
> >is no Member is The Usurper, and a Member is The Deposed King, the 
> Deposed
> >King becomes The Usurper.  If there is no Member that is The Usurper or
> >The
> >Deposed King, whichever Member has been a Member for the longest time
> >becomes The Usurper.
>
> Wonko is not a member of WBE.  E is welcome to request membership, and I'll 
> probably grant it, but I don't want membership in my society determined by 
> your proposal.

I was hoping you would agree on this.  I don't know whether or not Wonko 
would like to be in power, and how hard it was for him to make that 
sacrifice.  I'll need Wonko's word to make a change either way.  I found 
this the most fair and most descriptive of the situation.
And if all else fails, boot him out and change the charter.  It's in your 
power, but I was hoping you two would cooperate.

> And aside from the two sentences stating the existence of positions, 
> nothing in the above qualifies as a society action per your subsection

31 and counting.

C.  And I don't like the positions.

Name better ones, and I'll change them.  Or change them yourself once the 
prop passes.

> Also, the rule shuts WBE down.  WBE needs to be able to possess units, and 
> there's nothing in your rule that says it can.

I still don't know how the "Raw Materials" "Resources" "Resource Units" 
"Units" thing works, and I don't care.  It's too much of a mess, and beyond 
the scope of just getting this prop working.

> >Society: OrcTech
> >Members: Orc In A Spacesuit, Bd, Baron von Skippy, Wonko
> >Charter: One and only one Member has the position "Master".  If there is
> >no
> >Master of OrcTech, and any Members have the Position "Next in Line X",
> >where
> >X is an integer, the Member with the lowest X in eir Position becomes the
> >new Master.  If there are no such Members, the Member who has been a
> >Member
> >the longest becomes the new Master, if one exists. OrcTech performs
> >Actions
> >when its Master says it does.
> >If Orc In A Spacesuit is a Member and is not the Master, e becomes the
> >Master.
> >If Orc In A Spacesuit is not a Member of OrcTech, and e Requests
> >Admittance
> >to OrcTech, OrcTech automatically Accepts em.
> >If Orc In A Spacesuit changes eir name, OrcTech modifies its Charter to
> >replace all instances in it of "Orc In A Spacesuit" to eir new name.
>
> Only the first sentence is a valid society action per your subsection C.

32 and counting.... blood pressure rising accordingly

> >Society: M-Tek
> >Members: Glotmorf, Squire of Dimness
> >Charter: One and only one Member of M-Tek has the Position "Prez".  M-Tek
> >takes a Managerial Action other than modifying its Charter upon the Prez
> >stating it does, or after 2 ndays of 1/2 of the members of M-Tek state it
> >does if the Prez does not veto the action.
> >M-Tek performs an action upon all of its Members stating it does.
> >If there is no Prez of M-Tek, the member of M-Tek with the highest 
> Entropy
> >becomes the new Prez, if one exists.
> >At the beginning of each nweek's voting period, if M-Tek could have
> >legally
> >submited a proposal but did not, the Prez must give 5 points to each 
> other
> >member of M-Tek, if possible.
>
> Only the first sentence is a valid society action per your subsection C.  
> Even if this were not the case, the last sentence is always false, since 
> there was a time in the past when M-Tek could have legally submitted a 
> proposal, and did.

33....  And yes, my bad on the second part.  Will fix.

> >[[The reason for the 2 nday limit is that otherwise the actions happen
> >instantly, and any vetoes come afterwards, and therefore don't work
> >because
> >of retroactivity.  Unless of course you veto before the action takes
> >place,
> >which I find unlikly to happen.]]
> >
> >Society: The Secret Mookies
> >Members: Lord Gregarian
> >Charter: 'Lord Gregarian' is the High Mookie. The High Mookies performs
> >any
> >actions the High Mookie states it does.
> >
> >Society: vSET
> >Members: Baron von Skippy
> >Charter: vSET Accepts Entities and Ousts Members whenever the Member who
> >has
> >been a Member the longest says it does.
> >[[I'm basically setting it up so it exists.  Now, propose to have it do
> >more, BvS! :)]]
>
> As far as I know, vSET was never meant to have members or be a society.  It 
> was essentially a resource pool.

Yes, I know this.  I had several options, and vSET looked like some sort of 
entity.  Under the uber-prop rules, I would just say "there exists an Entity 
named vSET" in the rules, but I have to get all funky to stay compatible.  I 
don't think BvS would have a problem with this.
> >
> >}}
> >[[end societies list]]
> >
> >In Rule 748, __Overseas Gnomes__ delete the second sentence and delete 
> the
> >third paragraph.
> >In Rules 748, __Overseas Gnomes__, and 850, __Gnomes On Sale__, replace
> >all
> >instances of "the Gnome Account" with "vSOI".
> >[[Cause Societies are now powerful enough to do stuff like this in eir
> >Charter.]]
>
> No, they're not.  And you never said societies could possess points.  You 
> said societies having points was a property, but points are objects.

I wrote the [[text]] before I took Points away from Societies, to make the 
Corporations special.  I'll probably give them Points back.  You satisfied?
> >If they are not already, make BvS the CEO of vSOI, Glotmorf The Usurper 
> of
> >WBE, Wonko The Deposed King of WBE, Orc in a Spacesuit the Master of
> >OrcTech, and Glotmorf the Prez of M-Tek.
> >
> >If they are not already, make vSOI, vSET, Athena's Society, WBE, and
> >OrcTech
> >be Corporations.
> >
> >Destroy all societies other than vSOI, vSET, Athena's Society, WBE, 
> M-Tek,
> >OrcTech, The Secret Mookies, and Insert Name Here.
> >}}
> >[[end proposal]]
>
> Societies do not need a total rewrite.  Especially this one.  There is one 
> proposal by the Administrator that addresses the insta-club problem, and 
> one by me that lets people quit a society rather than suffer a charter 
> change.  Your proposal doesn't have that provision, nor the one about 
> members that are On Leave when the charter is changed.

People can leave.  Nothing can restrict them.  All the Society can do is try 
to take Actions and stuff to do bad things to the leaving member.  One thing 
it could do is encourage members to throw Bomb Gnomes at the deserter.

> This proposal will cause damage.

No it won't.  People who abuse societies do cause damage.

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