Re: [eia] battle of Bordeaux: British withdrawal roll, overwhelming odds and trivial combats

["Bill Jaffe" <billj@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Every other game I've played (not a great indicator, but worth saying),
simply implemented the rule as written, no PPs for overwhelming odds.

With secret forces, you pick chits, reveal, conduct withdrawals, and if
overwhelming odds, convert to that resolution method.

I'm not sure what the rationale is for confusion, the overwhelming odds rule
points to 7.5.3, but clearly 7.5.3.5 doesn't apply since both commanders
didn't agree on it, they were sent to trivial by rule.

Bill Jaffe
Wargaming since Tactics (1958), and playing 18xx since 1829
billj@xxxxxxxxxxx
 

-----Original Message-----
From: eia-bounces@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:eia-bounces@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
MICHAEL P GORMAN
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:39 AM
To: public list for an Empires in Arms game
Subject: Re: [eia] battle of Bordeaux: British withdrawal roll

Having read this rule and the trivial combat rules a few times, I'm not
sure.

At first I was going to say that since this replaces a battle normally worth
political points, the exception clause in 7.5.3.5 would apply and a battle
worth victory points is not lowered in value by replacing it with a trivial
combat.

But that clause indicates it applies only when a voluntary substitution is
made and the overwhelming numbers option makes a point to emphasize that it
is a mandatory trivial combat.

However, all other examples of trivial combats that are worth zero points
are situations where one side has no corps present at the battle which fits
with the general field battle idea that corps have to be involved for points
to be scored.  This also follows in siege battles where unless a corps is
involved or a city is fortified, it's worth no points to defeat the
garrison.

So I guess the question is, is overwhelming numbers an example of a normal
trivial combat worth no points.  Or is it an example of a field battle being
turned into a trivial combat where agreement by the the parties is mandatory
but they still are considered to have agreed to the change.


I'm also rather perplexed at how this rule works.  Since forces aren't
revealed in a standard field battle until after operational possbilities are
revealed and withdrawal checks are made, how are you supposed to know you
have 5:1 odds before you've already started a normal field battle?   Having
already made a failed withdrawal check, do the British forces get another
chance to withdraw now that we reveal forces and potentially learn that the
odds are officially greater than 5:1 and we need to apply the optional rule
that says the defender has a chance to withdraw before the battle on a
strategic die roll?  Even though in all cases this rule applies, that should
already have been an option for the defender.  So, finding out that the odds
are so bad, does the defender now get a second chance to withdraw?

This rule seems to expect that both corp identity and corps strength are
public.  But that is clearly not the case in the normal rules.  We've added
corps strength being secret, but corps identity is normally secret and thus
mandates the reveal forces step that otherwise wouldn't have to exist.  So
how will this rule ever be used until after almost every step skipped in a
trivial combat has already happened and the withdrawal option given in the
rule has already been used or set aside by the defender?

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Jaffe <billj@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:58 am
Subject: Re: [eia] battle of Bordeaux: British withdrawal roll
To: 'public list for an Empires in Arms game' <eia@xxxxxxxxx>


> However, that makes it a trivial combat at overwhelming odds, and no 
> PPs are
>  awarded, right?
>  
>  Bill Jaffe
>  Wargaming since Tactics (1958), and playing 18xx since 1829
>  billj@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
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