spoon-discuss: Re: spoon-business: The right to not incriminate oneself

[Wonko <dplepage@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Quoth Alex Truelsen,

> All right, this is the final time I'm doing this. Glotmorf, thank you for
> your Notepad suggestion. That's all it took. Last time I try to edit
> punctuation at 11:30...
> 
> Replace the entirety of Proposal 524 with the following ONCOMINGTRAIN
> delimited text:
> 
> ONCOMINGTRAIN
> {__If at First You Don't Succeed, Skydiving is Not For You__
> 
> [[
> Copper sat at er shiny new desk, awaiting er first assignment in the
> now relatively peaceful post-riot Bville. However, despite alcohol
> consumption in the city skyrocketing in the past week, peace still reigned.
> Perhaps, e thought, it was the very prospect of er wrath that was keping the
> peace. Yes, surely that was it. E put er feet up on the desk, content that
> existing was all that was needed in this job. A sudden knock on the door
> interrupted er reverie.
> "Come in."
> Two male players entered. The leading one had a faint aura about him
> of almost intangible power, and a smug look about his face. Copper
> recognized em as The Voice, one of the leading players in Bville. The second
> player wore an emblem on his tunic, a crowned squirrel set on a cross, and a
> worried look on his face.
> "Baron! What a pleasant surprise!" Copper greeted er creator happily.
> "And your Voiceness," his tone changing to worry at the look on BvS's face,
> "what brings you here today? Not another riot, I hope?"
> "Go ahead, Baron," The Voice said, with the air of a great orator, and
> the voice to match, "Tell him."
> "Copper, he's subpoenaed us."
> "What?"
> "And Wonko. Apparently, you're not Idol-compliant. Nobody knows what
> effect you'll have on the Immunity Idol, so /he/," jerking a thumb at The
> Voice, who was looking around the office with a faint sneer on his face,
> "wants you and Guido liquidated."
> "Liquidated, my good Baron? Hardly. They don't exist. The laws of the
> Nomiverse say that they cannot exist. Once the courts recognize this, they
> will return to where they came from." With this, The Voice pulled a sheet
> out of his robe, presenting it to Copper. "A petition to have your existence
> invalidated."
> "But there's only one signature on this, yours! How is this a
> petition?"
> "Baron, can't you create intelligent Gremlins? Never mind, I suppose
> you'll get it eventually. Just keep trying to propose things. Gremlin, it
> only takes one to CFJ. Now then, as you can see, since the rule that created
> you did not edit R293, you can't exist."
> "Baron, isn't there anything you can do?" Copper asked plaintively. "I
> don't want to not exist!"
> The Baron suddenly looked thoughtful. "Voice, give me that CFJ a
> second?" He read it over once or twice, then spoke with renewed hope. "Well,
> it seems there is really only that one problem. Copper, would you take this
> down and send it off to the Admin?"
> ]]
> 
> Add the following k:-O delimited text to the end of the list in Rule 293:
> k:-O
> 10) May NOT be apprehended by the Police Gremlin, unless eir BAC is greater
> than or equal to 5, in which event they are still apprehended, but no points
> are taken from em.
> k:-O
> 
> [[
> A flicker of surprise shot over The Voice's features, but was soon
> suppressed, and the old smug look came back. "Good, Baron. You are getting
> better at this yet, but you have forgotten something important. If this CFJ
> is judged before voting ends, your original rule will not exist."
> The Baron's surprise was not as well contained as The Voice's. "I just
> fixed the problem, Voice! What more do you want from me?"
> BvS was spared the Voice's answer by Copper's secretary entering the
> room. E looked briefly at the players standing there, glaring knives at each
> other, and placed a copy of the Friday Morning Daily Recognizer on Copper's
> desk and walked out. Copper looked at the two players, who, having recovered
> from the interruption, were having a heated argument. He wondered if it
> might be simpler to arrest The Voice for causing a disturbance, but then his
> eye fell on one of the headlines.
> "Baron?" e called.
> BvS turned. "What?"
> "You might want to look at this."
> Baron von Skippy read the proffered paper. "Proposals, CFJs? oh, it's
> this CFJ. Let's see?" E read for a few seconds, then looked up at The Voice
> with a fire in his eyes. E cleared his throat and read the article. "'The
> Admin today announced that the CFJ brought forth by The Voice against Baron
> von Skippy and Wonko is illegal under the rules because it names more than
> one player as Defendant.' Well, Voice, I do believe that concludes our
> business here."
> "What? That's impossible."
> "I'm afraid it's not just possible, it's happened. Now, please leave."
> "This isn't over, Baron! I'll CFJ you and Wonko separately!  The
> people must know of your violation of the laws!"
> "Copper, kindly show this gentleman the door."
> After The Voice had been removed from the building, BvS and Copper
> held an emergency meeting.
> "I have a plan, Copper. E'll CFJ again, but we can protect ourselves.
> You won't cease existing if I can help it. I wrote this up while you were
> dragging em out into the street:
> ]]
> 
> If Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset, create a new rule with the
> following +0:-) delimited text:
> 
> +0:-)
> There exists a Gremlin known as the Police Gremlin, or Copper. If Beer Cans
> exist, and one is thrown, and Copper is within one space of the person who
> threw it before it hits, Copper apprehends the player who threw the can.
> 
> When Copper apprehends a player for throwing a Beer Can, Copper takes 1dN
> points from that player, where N is ((the thrower's BAC + 1)(the number of
> times the thrower has been apprehended before + 1))/(that player's Respect +
> 1), rounded up, and gives half that number of points, rounded up, to the
> Gremlin Fund, and half that number of points, rounded down, to the player
> who was hit with the Beer Can.
> 
> Any player may, at any time, any number of times per nweek, move Copper one
> space in any direction by paying 1 point/space.
> 
> If Copper does not apprehend any players for 2 nweeks, e goes into Hiding.
> If a Beer Can is thrown, and e is in Hiding, e comes out of Hiding.
> +0:-)
> 
> [[
> "But that's the original rule!"
> "Yes, but this time the R293 problem has been fixed. However, if the
> original rule is deleted, it'll need to be reinstated to make the R293
> revision you sent in earlier do anything."
> "I see."
> "Well, I must be going. Good luck, Copper."
> "Goodbye, Baron, and thank you."
> 
> A few days pass...
> "Wonko CFJ'd? You can't be serious!"
> "It's all over the news, Baron. If this CFJ is judged true, half the
> Gremlins in Bville wink out of existence."
> "The half created by me, the Voice, and Wonko, that is."
> "Yes, sir."
> "All right, I'll get right on it. Have Andre meet me in the conference
> room."
> "Yes, sir."
> 15 minutes later, Andre, legal council to Baron von Skippy, met er
> employer for an emergency meeting.
> "Well, Andre, what do you have for me?"
> "Baron, it doesn't look good. Any Judge in eir right mind would have
> to decide TRUE for this one."
> "I thought I had saved Copper by making him Idol-compliant," the Baron
> muttered angrily. "So, what hoops must I jump through to save him now?"
> "Well, Baron, I've been looking at the ruleset, and I think I've found
> the solution." The Baron grimaced slightly at the memory of that failed
> proposal and attempt at haiku. "Oh, sorry, sir. Anyway, here it is."
> ]]
> 
> Delete the third paragraph of Rule 293.
> 
> [[
> "That's it?"
> "Well, sir, that's the trouble part, the part that reads 'Any rule
> which creates a gremlin which directly affects players must also amend this
> rule to specify how that gremlin would affect the player with the Idol.'
> Without it, this problem disappears."
> "But without it, how will Gremlins be Idol-compliant?"
> "It will be assumed that the holder of the Idol is immune to all
> effects of that Gremlin, unless the effects have been specified by an
> amendment to Rule 293. Such amendments will be at the creator's discretion."
> "Can it actually work?"
> "Oh, yes, sir, and it clears up this major problem. If we send it off
> soon enough, we can save Copper this nweek, a nice side bonus."
> The Baron leaned back, a smile spreading across his face. "Good work,
> Andre. Fire it off, and we'll see if we can't resolve this little problem
> before it erupts into another wave of riots."
> Andre did so, and left the room and BvS looking pensively out of the
> conference room's windows at Bville outside.
> 
> ]] }
> 
> Let that be the end of it.

Um... but now you've got the "if Rule 501 has been removed from the ruleset"
bit again...

Also, I think this will still end up with Copper being illegal - the rule
will be enacted, but because the *rule* doesn't amend the Idol rule, it'll
be illegal, and *then* the stupid sentence that made it illegal will be
erased. But Copper will have been illegal at the time of its creation, and
so will be not.



--Wonko

"If Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" "
    - Will Rogers