| jjy on 13 Aug 2002 01:56:02 -0000 |
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| Re: [eia] condensed garrison issues in votable format |
Kyle, I agree with you on Importants #1 and #2. -JJY P.S: When can we get started on April ? Quoting Kyle H <menexenus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > Return-Path: <eia-admin@xxxxxxxxx> > Received: from charybdis.ellipsis.cx (charybdis.ellipsis.cx [64.109.29.57]) > by mailbox.iwaynet.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id g7D1V42I007227 > for <jjy@xxxxxxxxxxx>; Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:31:04 -0400 > Received: (qmail 28801 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 01:31:02 -0000 > Received: from localhost (HELO charybdis.ellipsis.cx) (127.0.0.1) > by localhost with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 01:31:02 -0000 > Delivered-To: eia@xxxxxxxxx > Received: (qmail 28789 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2002 01:30:01 -0000 > Received: from mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (204.127.131.47) > by charybdis.ellipsis.cx with SMTP; 13 Aug 2002 01:30:01 -0000 > Received: from KylesDell4500 ([12.87.144.251]) > by mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net > (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP > id > <20020813013000.FJWG11089.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@KylesDell4500> > for <eia@xxxxxxxxx>; Tue, 13 Aug 2002 01:30:00 +0000 > Message-ID: <007501c24268$f8a0e080$1193570c@KylesDell4500> > From: "Kyle H" <menexenus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <eia@xxxxxxxxx> > References: <20020810163736.8315.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > <001701c240c3$f487b510$fe90570c@KylesDell4500> > <002b01c240cd$44cc53b0$fe90570c@KylesDell4500> > <5.1.1.5.2.20020812120845.00b37e80@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: [eia] condensed garrison issues in votable format > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006C_01C24247.5BA55BB0" > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 > Sender: eia-admin@xxxxxxxxx > Errors-To: eia-admin@xxxxxxxxx > X-BeenThere: eia@xxxxxxxxx > X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: eia@xxxxxxxxx > List-Help: <mailto:eia-request@xxxxxxxxx?subject=help> > List-Post: <mailto:eia@xxxxxxxxx> > List-Subscribe: <http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/eia>, > <mailto:eia-request@xxxxxxxxx?subject=subscribe> > List-Id: public list for an Empires in Arms game <eia.nomic.net> > List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/eia>, > <mailto:eia-request@xxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe> > List-Archive: <http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/eia/> > Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 21:29:36 -0400 > X-UIDL: >`""!<%(!!OPk!!]i2"! > Status: RO > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C24247.5BA55BB0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Thanks for sending out your views, Mike. (BTW, glad you had fun at = > GenCon.) I've got a few questions and comments. > > > ISSUE 1A: GARRISON MIGRATION. Can factors from a pre-existing city > > garrison become part of a depot garrison at the time that a new depot = > is > > created in the same area? > [snip] > > I agree with JJ. That seems to be fully supported by the rules. > > > Well, I'm glad we all agree. But I honestly don't know where you and JJ = > find any support for the idea that garrisons can move on their own in = > the rules. In fact, there seems to be evidence against that view. = > 7.3.4 lists corps, cossacks, freikorps, and guerillas as the only things = > that can be moved out of a city (using zero movement points). Garrisons = > are conspicuously absent from this list. > Again, I'm happy that we all agree that garrisons *should* be able = > to move out to garrison a depot. But I don't see how it is "fully = > supported by the rules". (If I've missed something, I'd be happy to = > have it pointed out to me.) =20 > > > I think it has to be defined when enemy forces arrive if it is a pure = > garrison factor force, no corps present, or at the=20 > beginning of the combat phase if there are corps present. So, I don't = > believe it is necessary to define which factors are where when the = > garrison or depot is created. > > That's essentially the rule that we've been using all along. So, = > it's fine by me. > > > ISSUE 2A: CAN CORPS BURN DEPOTS? > [snip] > > 7.3.3.5.1: All army factors/corps used to garrison a depot must be of = > the same major power as the depot. > > > > As Corps can be part of a depot garrison, I see no reason why they = > cannot do anything a depot garrison can do. > > I had missed the mention of "corps" in 7.3.3.5.1 before. Thanks for = > pointing it out. (It's strange that 7.3.3.3.1 does not list corps as = > being eligible to be part of a depot garrison yet 7.3.3.5.1 does... = > But, whatever. That's EIA...) =20 > Here's a question, though: must a corps have 10 or fewer factors in = > order to garrison a depot? (See 7.3.3.5.) My thinking is: to heck with = > the limitations. If a corps is in the same space as a depot, it can = > choose to burn it as if it were a garrison, regardless of whether that = > corps could qualify as a garrison. That just seems easier and more = > realistic. (After all, it doesn't take much to send a rider over with a = > torch and the 19th century equivalent of lighter fluid.) > > > ISSUE 2B: HOW ABOUT ALLIED OR CONTROLLED MINOR FREE STATE CORPS? If = > we > > say YES to Issue 2A, can allied or minor free state corps burn = > ungarrisoned friendly depots? > [snip] > > I agree with JJ on this one too. [Controlled free state corps = > YES, allied corps NO.] =20 > > Normally, controlled free state forces are only allowed to garrison a = > depot within the borders of that particular minor free state. = > (7.3.3.5.2) Are we going to stick with this rule? (Honestly, I don't = > see the point of it, especially in light of the fact that we are using = > optional rule 12.3.8 which allows free state garrisons outside the free = > state's borders.) If so, does that mean that controlled minor free = > state corps cannot burn a depot outside the borders of that minor = > country? > > > So, to sum up, I've got 2 important lingering questions plus 1 = > additional unimportant one: > Important #1: Must a corps have 10 or fewer factors to be eligible to = > burn a depot? (I recommend NO.) > Important #2: Can minor free state corps and factors garrison a depot = > outside the borders of the free state? (I recommend YES.) > Unimportant #3: Where do you find language supporting the view that = > garrisons can move? > > kdh > > ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C24247.5BA55BB0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> > <HTML><HEAD> > <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2715.400" name=3DGENERATOR> > <STYLE></STYLE> > </HEAD> > <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Thanks for sending = > out your=20 > views, Mike. (BTW, glad you had fun at GenCon.) I've got a = > few=20 > questions and comments.</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV> > <DIV>> ISSUE 1A: GARRISON MIGRATION. Can factors from a=20 > pre-existing city<BR>> garrison become part of a depot garrison at = > the time=20 > that a new depot is<BR>> created in the same area?</DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>[snip]</FONT><BR>> I agree with = > JJ. That=20 > seems to be fully supported by the rules.<BR></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well, I'm glad we all agree. But = > I honestly=20 > don't know where you and JJ find any support for the idea that garrisons = > can=20 > move on their own in the rules. In fact, there seems to be = > evidence=20 > against that view. 7.3.4 lists corps, cossacks, = > freikorps, and=20 > guerillas as the only things that can be moved out of a city (using = > zero=20 > movement points). Garrisons are conspicuously absent from this=20 > list.</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Again, = > I'm happy that we=20 > all agree that garrisons *should* be able to move out to garrison a = > > depot. But I don't see how it is "fully supported by the=20 > rules". (If I've missed something, I'd be happy to have = > it=20 > pointed out to me.) </FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = > size=3D3>I think it=20 > has to be defined when enemy forces arrive if it is a pure garrison = > factor=20 > force, no corps present, or at the </FONT></FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" = > size=3D3>beginning of=20 > the combat phase if there are corps present. So, I don't believe it is = > necessary=20 > to define which factors are where when the garrison or depot is=20 > created.</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></DIV></DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV> That's essentially the rule that we've been = > using all=20 > along. So, it's fine by me.</DIV> > <DIV><BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>> ISSUE 2A: CAN = > CORPS BURN=20 > DEPOTS?</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>[snip]</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>> 7.3.3.5.1: All army = > factors/corps=20 > used to garrison a depot must be of the same major power as the=20 > depot.<BR>><BR>> As Corps can be part of a depot garrison, I see = > no reason=20 > why they cannot do anything a depot garrison can do.</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2> </DIV> > <DIV> I had missed the mention of "corps" in = > > 7.3.3.5.1 before. Thanks for pointing it out. (It's strange = > that=20 > 7.3.3.3.1 does not list corps as being eligible to be part of a depot = > garrison=20 > yet 7.3.3.5.1 does... But, = > whatever. That's EIA...) =20 > </DIV> > <DIV> Here's a question, though: must a corps = > have 10 or=20 > fewer factors in order to garrison a depot? (See 7.3.3.5.) = > My=20 > thinking is: to heck with the limitations. If a corps is in the = > same space=20 > as a depot, it can choose to burn it as if it were a garrison, = > regardless of=20 > whether that corps could qualify as a garrison. That just seems = > easier and=20 > more realistic. (After all, it doesn't take much to send a rider = > over with=20 > a torch and the 19th century equivalent of lighter fluid.)</DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>> ISSUE 2B: HOW = > ABOUT ALLIED=20 > OR CONTROLLED MINOR FREE STATE CORPS? If we<BR>> say YES to = > Issue 2A,=20 > can allied or minor free state corps burn ungarrisoned friendly=20 > depots?<BR>[snip]</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20 > size=3D3>> </X-TAB>I agree = > with JJ on=20 > this one too. [Controlled free state corps YES, allied corps = > NO.] =20 > </FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><FONT face=3DArial = > size=3D2>Normally,=20 > controlled free state forces are only allowed to garrison a depot within = > the=20 > borders of that particular minor free state. (7.3.3.5.2) Are = > we=20 > going to stick with this rule? (Honestly, I don't see the point of = > it,=20 > especially in light of the fact that we are using optional rule 12.3.8 = > which=20 > allows free state garrisons outside the free state's borders.) If = > so, does=20 > that mean that controlled minor free state corps cannot burn a depot = > outside the=20 > borders of that minor country?</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial = > size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20 > face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT = > face=3DArial=20 > size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20 > size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20 > size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20 > size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV></FONT> > <DIV> So, to sum up, I've got 2 = > important lingering=20 > questions plus 1 additional unimportant one:</DIV> > <DIV>Important #1: Must a corps have 10 or fewer factors to be eligible = > to burn=20 > a depot? (I recommend NO.)</DIV> > <DIV>Important #2: Can minor free state corps and factors garrison a = > depot=20 > outside the borders of the free state? (I recommend YES.)</DIV> > <DIV>Unimportant #3: Where do you find language supporting the = > view=20 > that garrisons can move?</DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV>kdh</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> > > ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01C24247.5BA55BB0-- > > _______________________________________________ > eia mailing list > eia@xxxxxxxxx > http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/eia > > _______________________________________________ eia mailing list eia@xxxxxxxxx http://lists.ellipsis.cx/mailman/listinfo/eia